The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game

[safiq10]

While im not fully on board of the secret endgame. I dont think they would do this, but I will agree that the game is missing its special oomph. That both rebound rumble and ultimate ascent had. Maybe we over-speculated and are living in the past hype or maybe we are secretly correct and FIRST is holding back. The world may never know (unless they tell us)

[Brandon_L]

Originally Posted by UnTrustedTruss

Then it has to be able to pass, which I am guessing many teams that use the defense bot as a training tool for younger members (Normal Team: Elders, Defense only: Freshmen learning shop skills) is not going to be able to do well.

If you can drive, you can heard the ball into the next zone where it can be picked up by a alliance partner

[MrForbes]

Originally Posted by UnTrustedTruss

.....According to this spec-sheat, this thing can support 1726 lbs....

I really don't know what to think about this. I've seen that number somewhere before.....

[apples000]

At first, I dismissed this thread as some crazy theory that somebody came up with. The game this year seems a little boring. After two easy to explain, crowd pleasing exciting games, this one seems, well, a little dull. We thought the GDC learned their lesson with relying one alliance partners in 2012, and hard to explain games in 2011. Try explaining the assist system to an outsider, or how cycles work. If a robot e-stops, dies, breaks etc..., then no points for that alliance. To be the minimum competitive concept, you need to be able to pick up balls, drive, and put them in goals. The most competitive robot, will do the same three things.

My first explanation for the truss was that it originally held something, but for some reason, the GDC decided against this. Then, I watched the video. Even though I'm fairly certain that this is just me fantasizing about getting a different game (I don't like this one), Woodie's sentence struck me as being really weird during the kickoff, and there's no explanation. Usually, FIRST wants to spend as much time showing sponsors, scholarships, or inspiring speeches, and Woodie's sentence doesn't really mean anything besides for in this context.

Woodie says
"launch this year's madness. We're always trying to come up with new ways to keep things fresh and push the boundaries, so we're doing things a bit differently this year, making changes throughout the season from kickoff to championship"

He's not talking about one (possible) change for just championships, he's talking about changes for ALL parts of the season.

[tStano]

Originally Posted by Brandon_L

If you can drive, you can heard the ball into the next zone where it can be picked up by a alliance partner

I don't think it will be that easy. These balls are really light and slippery. I think even a slight tap(with a 150 pound robot), let alone "herding" (as defined in the rulebook) will send them off very unpredictably and fast.

[UnTrustedTruss]

Originally Posted by apples000

He's not talking about one (possible) change for just championships, he's talking about changes for ALL parts of the season.

This kickoff was just plain weird. From the talk of failure, to the talk of changes, it just didn't feel normal. I am starting to not think that this will be an addition, however I am not thinking this was meant to be an addition. As others have mentioned the concept of backup games, this game feels like it comes from a first gone by. It will be interesting to see, if my crazy theory doesn't come true, how this will turn out.

We did do some testing with the balls on our 2013 robot. Those thinking they are going to control the ball by just hitting it with the bumpers are plain wrong. We have had the ball go under the wheel pinched and stuck, over the bumper, to the right and get pinched, to the left and pinched, off and up, and (surprisingly) forward. You are going to need a cow catcher to control this thing.

[DohertyBilly]

Originally Posted by BigJ

I suggest the posters saying that the game feels "incomplete" really sit down with their teams and imagine how the game will be played. There is a lot of underlying depth to this game that I feel some of the posters in this thread aren't really grasping.

I really doubt that an entire new challenge would be added to the game mid-season. Such a move would only tell teams not to trust the game rules in the future.

I think that this game is not so much about the technical challenge as it is about the strategy that will going into maximizing your efficiency. Personally, I see the 3 zones breaking down into 'jobs' that the robots are essentially assigned by virtue of position. I highly doubt that every robot will be able to do everything, so planning out the match in advance will be key. Of course, there are many different ways this could play out. FIRST only makes the rules, it's really us who decide how to play the game. I don't think Aerial Assist lacks challenge, it's just a different kind. Last year it was simpler as to what we had to do, the challenge was doing it. This year strikes me as the opposite.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by BigJ

I suggest the posters saying that the game feels "incomplete" really sit down with their teams and imagine how the game will be played. There is a lot of underlying depth to this game that I feel some of the posters in this thread aren't really grasping.

I really doubt that an entire new challenge would be added to the game mid-season. Such a move would only tell teams not to trust the game rules in the future.

Quoted for truth. If you think this year's game is simple or boring, you clearly haven't thought it through very well. Playing this game well is going to take flexible strategies and rapid tactics changes.

I'm guessing the people who think it's simple figure they'll grab a ball, pass a ball, ???, ???, their allies score, and start the cycle over. As with basketball, movement away from the ball is going to be critical for success here.

Also, given the outrage and ruckus that's come from MINOR ruling changes late in the season, does anyone really think the GDC is going to drop an entirely new endgame challenge on teams in the middle of build? Please give them a little more credit than that.

Finally, I think you guys are misinterpreting that statement. Try understanding it like this: "launch this year's madness. We're always trying to come up with new ways to keep things fresh and push the boundaries, so we're doing things a bit differently this year, making changes to all parts of the season from kickoff to championship". That sense of the statement has the dual advantages of being true and also not insane.

[kellymc]

To add to the conspiracy, look at the bolts holding the "guides" onto the top of the truss in the video, there is 1-2" of thread exposed, very sloppy for a field element, seems like the guides were a last minute addition.

Having that much thread exposed is generally considered a safety hazard and the field elements are usually very refined

[UnTrustedTruss]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

Finally, I think you guys are misinterpreting that statement. Try understanding it like this: "launch this year's madness. We're always trying to come up with new ways to keep things fresh and push the boundaries, so we're doing things a bit differently this year, making changes to all parts of the season from kickoff to championship". That sense of the statement has the dual advantages of being true and also not insane.

That makes a ton of sense, and I am doubting that my original theory has any validity. However, I don't get how they added anything this year at all. I have seen nothing particularly new, format wise, this year that would justify that statement

[Saberbot]

Originally Posted by luckof13

Another point:
These lighting trusses can't possibly be very cheep; lots of welded aluminum cross bracing. Why would FIRST buy a bunch of these if they are only to be used for a 'volley ball net'.

These trusses are a very standard part that are mass produced and widely available. I've seen at least four of them at every single FRC event I have ever attended. They can easily be rented from production houses for an extensive period of time. They aren't going to break if anybody runs in to them, and they won't flex at all. FIRST didn't have to do any engineering or manufacturing (which in itself would probably be just as expensive as the truss) and don't have to worry about replacing broken parts.

I don't see any argument as to how the presence of the trusses proves that there will be an endgame that involves hanging.

[Racer26]

Originally Posted by UnTrustedTruss

That makes a ton of sense, and I am doubting that my original theory has any validity. However, I don't get how they added anything this year at all. I have seen nothing particularly new, format wise, this year that would justify that statement

The major one I've seen is changing CMP alliance selections to the IRI model.

[DampRobot]

Originally Posted by AlecMataloni

No.

This. FIRST would never introduce a surprise endgame. It's just not going to happen.

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by BigJ

I suggest the posters saying that the game feels "incomplete" really sit down with their teams and imagine how the game will be played. There is a lot of underlying depth to this game that I feel some of the posters in this thread aren't really grasping.

I really doubt that an entire new challenge would be added to the game mid-season. Such a move would only tell teams not to trust the game rules in the future.

The more I read topics like this, and some of the other general game discussion, the more I wonder whether people are even reading the rulebook before they post. I know this has always been a problem, but seriously... it seems like at least one in every 5 posts is someone seriously misunderstanding the rules.

[Mike Martus]

In my 18 years with a FIRST Team I always come away the first day with a thought...."What is the Smoke and Mirrors", "What is the real intent of the game" and most of all "First Game creators are really smart..... can the game be as it seems".

After a few days, weeks and even into the season the "Real" game emerges, teams re-design and re-adjust to the reality of how the game actually plays.

Yes, some games are better than others - this is the perception of each and every one of us and what we really expect to happen.

Look deep and hard at this game....was the Woodie comments "Smoke and Mirrors?

Great thread guys!