The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game

[dubiousSwain]

Originally Posted by mrnoble

As I see it, here are the arguments for and against. I hope I'm doing everyone's statements justice.

Arguments for a secret end game:

-Woodie's statement in the video that they would change things up
-The lack of changes in the game as presented (rather the opposite; recycled and repackaged strategies and game pieces)
-An over-built volleyball net
-An expensive light toy to hold the next ball
-Both the light and (especially) the truss featured prominently in the video as teasers, and in the manual
-A useless but highly described "defense" strategy that no team will choose to focus on, but might be an excuse for a hanging appendage
-The disruptive presence of Ri3D projects, potentially leading to vanilla robots
-No end game currently
-Shorter game play

Arguments against a secret end game:

-Perhaps hidden depths to game play strategy that, without deeper understanding and practice, are not yet discernible to most teams
-The possibility that the truss was donated, borrowed, rented, or already part of FIRST's stock and therefore an easy choice for a field element
-The possibility that FIRST made last-minute changes to the game, or put in place a backup game
-The furor that a major gameplay change would cause among many (most) teams, especially veterans and teams with a quick design/manufacturing process
-The fact that FRC is, after all, made up of humans. They can't always hit a home run; in fact, they might just have made a less-than-exciting game (at least on the surface; see above)


I am inclined toward there being a hidden game. I think it will be revealed soon after Ri3D is complete; certainly no later than next Saturday. I would not be surprised if "assist" were to extend toward helping other teams with a multi-robot hang, perhaps off of a yet-to-be-revealed attachment to the truss.

Very interesting thread, with great, thought out, points from both parties. i am personally thinking that they will add something new with the human players, as they aren't doing much during the game right now. or perhaps i'm not "appreciating the depth of the game"

[Gray Adams]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

To all those who believe there will be a secret endgame revealed in 3 days, 1 weeks, etc. I suggest that if you believe that's the case, don't do any serious designing, strategizing, or prototyping until the secret game is revealed, because it's just going to invalidate all that work you've just done.




What's that? Sitting on your hands for 3 days would be a serious disadvantage and would compromise your competitiveness? It'd be a large waste of your time? Huh.

Or you could just hedge your bet and work anyway.

[mrnoble]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

To all those who believe there will be a secret endgame revealed in 3 days, 1 weeks, etc. I suggest that if you believe that's the case, don't do any serious designing, strategizing, or prototyping until the secret game is revealed, because it's just going to invalidate all that work you've just done.




What's that? Sitting on your hands for 3 days would be a serious disadvantage and would compromise your competitiveness? It'd be a large waste of your time? Huh.

I'll keep that in mind, Kevin.

Sarcasm aside, I really don't want to be either a conspiracy nut, or an advocate for a pet theory. We're all just making our best guesses, on every aspect of the game, every year, from pre-season hints clear up to week 1 of competition. We do our best, and sometimes what we predict turns out to be correct; other times, with hindsight, we see that we missed the mark. I do think that there are plenty of reasons to think that something might be up. There are also plenty of reasons to think that it's all just our overactive imaginations.

As things develop, I will continue to plan and work with my team, and we will strategize with the information and expertise we have, and we will absorb new information as it presents itself.

“If the Day of Judgment erupts while you are planting a new tree, carry on and plant it.”, the Prophet said.

[Racer26]

I'm having a really hard time with the way that Aerial Assist seems like such a step backward from the leaps and bounds made toward simplicity of explaining the game to casual observers in a handful of seconds in 2012 and 2013.

2011: Convoluted scoring system with multipliers and logo bonuses that is hard to explain

2012: Its robot basketball, and they get points for balancing the bridge at the end of the game, more robots, more points.

2013: Throw frisbees into goals for points, hang from pyramid for more points at the end. Climb higher, get more points.

2014: Throw balls into goals, but you get more points along a non-linear scale for more robots touching it, plus theres this truss you can throw it over, and you get more points for catching it out of the air.

ADDITIONALLY

Aerial Assist is going to have difficulty being scored consistently. The only way to score Aerial Assist is to have refs being VERY careful to watch who touches what balls where, how they caught them out of the air, and what goals they've been fired through.

In the last several years, FIRST has being trying really hard to make games that can be scored automatically by means of sensors on the field, because realtime scoring on the videoboard near the field is important to helping casual observers follow the action.

I'm just seeing this as a big step backwards from the "New FIRST" we've seen in 2012 and 2013.

[Marc S.]

Originally Posted by mrnoble

Arguments for a secret end game:
...
-The disruptive presence of Ri3D projects, potentially leading to vanilla robots
-No end game currently
...

This is probably the biggest thing that gives me hope for this theory. With all the awesome vex versa gear and the multiple Ri3D teams I am kinda... disappointed.

There isn't a whole lot of incentive anymore to design your own system when something (better) is readily available and good to go. Even if a team came up with a design themselves the Ri3D teams are holding a precedent that is hard to ignore and hard not to follow (or at least use as a starting point).

Either way I'm excited to see how Aerial Assist plays out.

[cgmv123]

Originally Posted by Racer26

2011: Convoluted scoring system with multipliers and logo bonuses that is hard to explain

I'd argue the system was not convoluted. (3 points, 2 points, or 1 point depending on height, double points of a tube for being over a yellow tube, double points for a complete row.)

The only way to score Aerial Assist is to have refs being VERY careful to watch who touches what balls where, how they caught them out of the air, and what goals they've been fired through.

There are 5 refs and only at most 2 balls to keep track of. It's not as hard as it sounds.

[Racer26]

Originally Posted by cgmv123

I'd argue the system was not convoluted. (3 points, 2 points, or 1 point depending on height, double points of a tube for being over a yellow tube, double points for a complete row.)

Did you ever try to explain that scoring system (and why teams always went for the high pegs first), plus the minibot race, to a casual observer in 10 seconds or less?

Originally Posted by cgmv123

There are 5 refs and only at most 2 balls to keep track of. It's not as hard as it sounds.

I'm not saying they can't do it, but having experienced every FIRST game since 2003 first hand (except 2005), games heavily dependent on the refs for scoring tend to have a lot of issues related to human error.

[Ultimatum]

I'd personally highly doubt any major changes to occur. There was an explosion on CD and throughout FIRST last year when they changed the "blizzard of frisbees" at the last thirty seconds. Now imagine if they changed something that didn't just slightly affect some teams in a negative way (ground pickup robots were rightfully frustrated), but something that changed what everyone had been planning all throughout build season.

[Steven Donow]

I don't think this game is too tough to describe to a "casual" observer.

Robots throw large exercise balls across the field into scoring zone, with additional points being awarded when a robot in another zone "assists" with scoring the ball. Bonus points are also awarded for either throwing it over the thing in the middle of the field and having it be catched.

Sure, it's not a short sentence like 2012 and 2013, but I think it's clear enough to get the general idea across.

[Oblarg]

Originally Posted by yash101

...There is not enough space because you need a ramp, the shooting mechanism and a really small area for ALL the electronics (including the battery)...

...Face it: The only valid possibilities are to either kick the ball around into the goal or to defend other goals!

This is completely and utterly false. I suggest you go look at some match videos from 2008, where the balls were quite a bit bigger than these.

[Caio]

Don't know if this has been mentioned, but we just started watching the kickoff video again.

It starts with:
"They thought X, they got Y" themes with previous inventions.

Game hint:
"Sorry, we made a mistake. These numbers give the same result but look different and are formatted differently"

Maybe, a completely different challenge, solvable by the same robot.

Food for thought.

[BBray_T1296]

Can someone explain to me the word AERIAL in the game name please? Yeah you throw a ball, but game pieces have been 8' in the air for years now.

[Oblarg]

Originally Posted by BBray_T1296

Can someone explain to me the word AERIAL in the game name please? Yeah you throw a ball, but game pieces have been 8' in the air for years now.

It starts with 'A' and they wanted to be alliterative, I guess.

[mrnoble]

Originally Posted by yash101

To rookies: i do not wish to unmotivate you, but it will be a very hard game and you will need to spend good time making sure you actually get work done, especially with the possibility that they might change parts of the game to make the game actually practical.

Face it: The only valid possibilities are to either kick the ball around into the goal or to defend other goals!

I also disagree with this statement. There are a huge number of ways to make a robot that can extend up to 20" outside it's perimeter pick up, pass, catch, hold, and shoot a relatively small and light ball like the one we have. Video of past games (especially 2008, as was previously mentioned) will be extremely enlightening, and hopefully motivating.

[Racer26]

Originally Posted by BBray_T1296

Can someone explain to me the word AERIAL in the game name please? Yeah you throw a ball, but game pieces have been 8' in the air for years now.

Or there's a climbing based end-game using the seemingly over-built truss that they plan to release after Ri3D's have done their thing but early enough in build to not screw people up too bad.

FIRST knew (at least as early as a few weeks ago) that there were going to be first 1, then 3, then 5, then 6 Ri3Ds this year. They saw the effect just one had in 2013. It significantly raised the floor of the competition, but it caused a fair bit of limiting to the diversity of designs. Having 6 Ri3Ds in 2014, we're going to have 6 good examples, made by teams of people with several world championships and countless regional wins under their collective belts. Those 6 robots will likely show us most of the major design themes 2014 robots will have. I can see how the GDC would see that as a negative thing, and try to do something about it.

Doing something like a surprise game element released AFTER the Ri3Ds are done would be a way to restore some of that unique design challenge without diminishing the beneficial effects that the Ri3Ds have.