Why only one ball?

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by MrForbes

My though is that you haven't watched robots trying to manipulate large balls....it's hilarious to watch, and agonizing if you're on the team that's trying to do it. It's not as easy as you might think. I expect that if an alliance can get the ball from one end of the field to the other, using 3 robots, it will take roughly a minute to do so. If they have their acts together.

You clearly haven't seen footage of 2008. There was a fairly large number of robots that could get those balls around the field multiple times a minute.

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

You clearly haven't seen footage of 2008. There was a fairly large number of robots that could get those balls around the field multiple times a minute.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYNEAL_dK6I

[MrForbes]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

You clearly haven't seen footage of 2008. There was a fairly large number of robots that could get those balls around the field multiple times a minute.

I was there....the robot generally had to pass the ball to itself (over the overpass) once per lap.

It'd going to be hilarious....I described the game to my mom today, she could immediately imagine how much fun it will be to watch. I hope she can make it to the competition, to see her grandsons play

[Alan2338]

Okay, so a few of us on 2338 think we are either missing something or we found something interesting.

First off, a few things.

Is there anything that explicitly states a ball is on the pedestal to begin the match? We haven't found any...

Next

3.1.2 MATCH LOGISTICS
Although an ALLIANCE may start a MATCH with up to three (3) BALLS, the PEDESTAL will only be illuminated when the last BALL that started the MATCH is SCORED, effectively reducing the number of BALLS in play per ALLIANCE to one (1).

Are there 3 or 4 balls total available to be put in the rotation of cycles?


Also

G5
For ROBOTS starting in their GOALIE ZONE the TEAM may decide if the BALL is: staged between the TRUSS and the ZONE LINE and not contacting an ALLIANCE partner, or removed from the FIELD for the MATCH.

With the definition of a match as the full 2:30, if it's removed from the FIELD for the MATCH, is that ball permanently out of the rotation of Red or Blue's Match balls?

G5
For ROBOTS starting in the white ZONE, the TEAM may preload one (1) of their ALLIANCE’s BALLS such that the BALL is touching their ROBOT.

Even more with the auto balls, do you have to take one if not in the goalie zone? And if you can choose to opt out, and leave it out of auto, is it out of the FIELD for the MATCH?

-------------

If we are correct about this whole limited number of balls in a rotation, and there is not a stockpile, do you lose out by choosing for a goalie or choosing for someone not to take a ball? If this is true, you could end up with only two balls. I am already worried about the speed of the field worker being a variable to worry about, but if you only end up with 2 balls, it becomes even worse.

[alectronic]

Originally Posted by Alan2338

Is there anything that explicitly states a ball is on the pedestal to begin the match? We haven't found any...

They stated during kickoff that field crew would stage a new ball anytime the light was off, so that it would be available to the team when the light came on. (I'm not sure how else you would get the first ball into the CYCLE?)

Originally Posted by Alan2338

Are there 3 or 4 balls total available to be put in the rotation of cycles?

I don't think there is a specific number. The idea is that whenever a ball is scored, another is available for play. That is what they imply in the Kickoff videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERuue...qTbhru_5#t=107

Originally Posted by Alan2338

With the definition of a match as the full 2:30, if it's removed from the FIELD for the MATCH, is that ball permanently out of the rotation of Red or Blue's Match balls?

As with above, I think that is over-analysis. I don't think the crew will "only" have those 2 balls to use, it is just a queue from all the balls they have back-stocked so that one is always available.

Originally Posted by Alan2338

Even more with the auto balls, do you have to take one if not in the goalie zone? And if you can choose to opt out, and leave it out of auto, is it out of the FIELD for the MATCH?

For starting positions, please see G5.

Originally Posted by Manual G5

For ROBOTS starting in the white ZONE, the TEAM may preload one (1) of their ALLIANCE’s BALLS such that the BALL is touching their ROBOT.

For ROBOTS starting in their GOALIE ZONE the TEAM may decide if the BALL is: staged between the TRUSS and the ZONE LINE and not contacting an ALLIANCE partner, or removed from the FIELD for the MATCH.

If a ROBOT does not report to a MATCH, its ALLIANCE may decide if the BALL is: staged between the TRUSS and the ZONE LINE and not contacting an ALLIANCE partner, or removed from the FIELD for the MATCH.

You never have to take a ball. But any ball you take in auto must be put into a goal before you can score ANY points in teleop.

[Breakaway3937]

Originally Posted by alectronic

You never have to take a ball. But any ball you take in auto must be put into a goal before you can score ANY points in teleop.

I understand that the pedestal will not light up until the last ball used during autonomous goes through the goal. That will allow only one ball after the 3 or less balls used during autonomous goes through the goal. What says that the ball cannot score in the goals. A CYCLE is defined as first starting from a lite pedestal, however that is for scoring ASSISTS. Does the manual every say that if you put those balls used during autonomous through the goals that they wouldn't score in the 10 point or 1 point goal during TELEOP?

[Breakaway3937]

I think I found the answer to my own question reading with more intent.



3.1.4
Points are awarded once per CYCLE for BALLS SCORED by ROBOTS in the GOALS, BALLS SCORED by ROBOTS over the TRUSS, and for each ROBOT CATCH. Additional points are credited to an ALLIANCE upon each GOAL based on the number of ASSISTS earned by the ALLIANCE for that CYCLE.

A CYCLE is the series of events that recur regularly, and each CYCLE begins with an ALLIANCE member retrieving their BALL from their lit PEDESTAL and ends when the BALL is SCORED in a GOAL. Major events in a CYCLE are depicted in Figure 3-1.



Finding this bit of information about balls used in autonomous not being score is interesting. Teams will need to be very strategic about balls in play.

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by Alan2338

Okay, so a few of us on 2338 think we are either missing something or we found something interesting.

First off, a few things.

Is there anything that explicitly states a ball is on the pedestal to begin the match? We haven't found any...

Next



Are there 3 or 4 balls total available to be put in the rotation of cycles?


Also



With the definition of a match as the full 2:30, if it's removed from the FIELD for the MATCH, is that ball permanently out of the rotation of Red or Blue's Match balls?



Even more with the auto balls, do you have to take one if not in the goalie zone? And if you can choose to opt out, and leave it out of auto, is it out of the FIELD for the MATCH?

-------------

If we are correct about this whole limited number of balls in a rotation, and there is not a stockpile, do you lose out by choosing for a goalie or choosing for someone not to take a ball? If this is true, you could end up with only two balls. I am already worried about the speed of the field worker being a variable to worry about, but if you only end up with 2 balls, it becomes even worse.

You only "end up with" 1 ball no matter what. After you score your 3 or less autonomous balls, only 1 ball is placed onto the pedestal no matter what. That is what 3.1.2 means.

[Racer26]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

You clearly haven't seen footage of 2008. There was a fairly large number of robots that could get those balls around the field multiple times a minute.

Multiple times a minute, yes.

BUT

Even 2008 World Champion team 1114, with Simbot SS being arguably the most dominant robot in FRC since 71 in 2002, was only consistently doing 6-7 hurdles in a match.

I expect that a top team flying solo in 2014 will be able to achieve 6, maybe 7 1-assist cycles. Top alliances at championship will be lucky to push 5 3-assist cycles in a match.