The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game

[Magnetorb]

G12. An ALLIANCE may not POSSESS their opponent’s BALLS.

I don't like how there's not much that we can do in the way of defense other than deflecting balls and playing goalie. It's almost all offense. Games are more fun when you can steal the ball, etc. It seems like there has to be more to this game.

[UnTrustedTruss]

Originally Posted by Magnetorb

I don't like how there's not much that we can do in the way of defense other than deflecting balls and playing goalie. It's almost all offense. Games are more fun when you can steal the ball, etc. It seems like there has to be more to this game.

Our team has been thinking of the ball like we thought of the frisbees last year. The game "objective" is to place the Frisbees in the goal, but really the game comes down to off the ball movement. Sure you could steal the ball, but in higher levels it is really coming down to off-ball movement as changing a 100% shooter to an 80% shooter when you are shooting 0% does no good.

[JConnolly]

I do agree that the spontaneous end game could be a factor, but there are a few problems with the idea.

1. I've heard people propose a lot about hanging from the truss, but why would FIRST do that? Everyone would copy winning designs from 2013, and add scores to each team? I may not get it.

2. Others have said things about balancing the balls on top of the truss. A 2008 FIRST Overdrive copy. Again, why? To copy designs and incorporate them into modular robots? Again, I may not get it.

Having said this, there are many ideas to support an "unanticipated" end game.

1. "The truss is unnecessarily robust." We may have to glide along the truss, hanging, from one end to the other, with the assistance of alliance members. The only problem: 2 alliances can do that at once

2. The poles that sense the ball flying through the infinite plane above the truss, but also keep the ball in play, maybe unnecessary, but an endgame: like the minibots from Logomotion, but that seems unlikely and again, useless.

I do enjoy ideas of different end games, so keep them coming! I hope they do introduce one, despite my negative points xD

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by Magnetorb

I don't like how there's not much that we can do in the way of defense other than deflecting balls and playing goalie. It's almost all offense. Games are more fun when you can steal the ball, etc. It seems like there has to be more to this game.

Blue robot gobbles up the ONLY red ball and holds it for the entire match. Not very exciting. That kind of defense just isn't allowable with the game as it's designed. Not if you want to watch something other than six robots playing keep-away.

[UnTrustedTruss]

Originally Posted by JConnolly

Everyone would copy winning designs from 2013, and add scores to each team?

To copy designs and incorporate them into modular robots? Again, I may not get it.

I do enjoy ideas of different end games, so keep them coming! I hope they do introduce one, despite my negative points xD

I think we can all agree that last years endgame did not go as first planned. During the opening Kamen talks a lot about failure, and about how FRC is meant to be a place where we can experience healthy failure, and learn from it. What happened in 2013 was not failure, it could not fail for most teams as they did not even attempt more then one rung. Why not allow a second chance?

As regards to another possible endgame, our team discussed the idea of the return of the minibot, much like you mention. A member had the idea of teams needing to lift and attach a small robot to the beam. This small robot would have to detach and lodge itself, hanging off the beam. This would fulfill both the Ariel and Assist parts of the challenge.

[Hallry]

Originally Posted by UnTrustedTruss

Finally, a good use for that one

[PayneTrain]

Ways to score in Aerial Assist:
Goal Scoring (including all types of goals in all periods of the game)
Assists
Truss Throw
Catch
Fouls

Ways to score in Ultimate Ascent:
Goal Scoring (including all types of goals in all periods of the game)
Pyramid Climbing
Fouls

But I guess there will be a secret endgame because this game is so generic and it needs more scoring opportunities.

[Libby K]

Originally Posted by UnTrustedTruss

During the opening Kamen talks a lot about failure, and about how FRC is meant to be a place where we can experience healthy failure, and learn from it.

Either refer to him as Mr. Kamen or Dean Kamen. This isn't a newspaper article, nor have you mentioned him previously. Please have some respect for FIRST's founder.

Originally Posted by UnTrustedTruss

As regards to another possible endgame, our team discussed the idea of the return of the minibot, much like you mention. A member had the idea of teams needing to lift and attach a small robot to the beam. This small robot would have to detach and lodge itself, hanging off the beam. This would fulfill both the Ariel and Assist parts of the challenge.

It's AERIAL Assist. Seriously, people. It's not that hard to spell.

Also, after pages and pages of speculation, I still see no reason for the belief that FIRST would release such a large aspect of the game after kickoff. Why would they wait until teams have made their priority lists, designed their robots, and maybe even fabricated a good portion of them before adding something to the challenge? That'd just be cruel, and there's no precedent for it.

Why is this even worth so much time and thought? The truss works in the middle of the field because it's strong, will last through the season, and looks clean & nice. Accept it for what it is.

[TucoSalamanc]

Originally Posted by Libby K

Also, after pages and pages of speculation, I still see no reason for the belief that FIRST would release such a large aspect of the game after kickoff. Why would they wait until teams have made their priority lists, designed their robots, and maybe even fabricated a good portion of them before adding something to the challenge? That'd just be cruel, and there's no precedent for it.

This thread is insane, like tinfoil hat crazy, but I don't think it would be cruel if they did (which they won't) add this. A team that is that on the ball to be fabricating this early is going to be able to adapt. For real life engineers, at least here in Israel, have the rug pulled out from them all the time. If FRC wants to be a microcosm of the industry, this is a necessary evil.

[MarcD79]

With all these posts I have yet to see anyone address HOW the Truss is mounted to the floor. There is nothing that I can see in the drawings that will prevent the truss from tipping over if a robot hits it squarely. If robots attempt to hang from it, there could be a swinging motion, which could tip it over.
FIRST would not put anyone's safety at risk by not providing adequate structural side-to-side support if they intended robots to hang from the truss later down the line. Yes there will be a lot of speculation & a lot of hopeful thinking, but maybe we need to look it square in the face & take it at face value. A truss to toss the ball over & remind teams of the height limit.
If on the other hand I have become narrow-minded, then I will eat my words.

[TucoSalamanc]

Originally Posted by MarcD79

With all these posts I have yet to see anyone address HOW the Truss is mounted to the floor. There is nothing that I can see in the drawings that will prevent the truss from tipping over if a robot hits it squarely. If robots attempt to hang from it, there could be a swinging motion, which could tip it over.
FIRST would not put anyone's safety at risk by not providing adequate structural side-to-side support if they intended robots to hang from the truss later down the line. Yes there will be a lot of speculation & a lot of hopeful thinking, but maybe we need to look it square in the face & take it at face value. A truss to toss the ball over & remind teams of the height limit.
If on the other hand I have become narrow-minded, then I will eat my words.

Again, don't believe in this but...

That truss is super sturdy. The weight alone will make it hard to tip that thing. If the robots are not swing like monkeys, their weight might actually make it harder to tip. They should act like a pendulum if they are centered. It will take an act of G-d to tip that thing.

[tkell274]

I believe that FIRST will have its minor changes throughout the build and competition season through the updates and they may even finally change the value of scoring at the Championship this year like they have held the right to the past three years. But I find it very hard to believe that they would ever change the game so drastically halfway through the build season. I know by that point most teams are working towards their final designs and are getting ready to debug and to have to totally change their robots would be insane.


Also the idea that one team could still dominate is really not the case this year. It is much more likely that three teams will be able to assist three times and score in the top goal for 40 points and do three cycles than one team doing six cycles for 20. Yes there will be cases in the early qualification rounds that one team could win it by themselves, but in eliminations and later weeks that will not be the case. It is very simple to pass and control the ball this year, all it requires is repeated contact with the ball and then something as simple as ramming the ball to an alliance member that could pick up and shoot.

This will become a very complex game with the strategies of passing, shooting and defending and I think it will start boring like most years do but will end up being one of the more exciting games in recent FIRST history.

And as for the name of the game it's Aerial Assist because of the passing and catching over the trust. Not some super secret endgame in my opinion.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by TucoSalamanc

That truss is super sturdy. The weight alone will make it hard to tip that thing.

With a CG well above the floor... and the supports only 2' wide... I don't think it'll have to go far sideways. It's gotta go about 13" sideways... and once it does, don't get under it.


I predict that at some point during the competition season, a field fault will be declared when a robot carrying a ball inadvertently rams the truss and sends it over. The robot in question, sadly, may not survive.

[zacube]

Originally Posted by tkell274

This will become a very complex game with the strategies of passing, shooting and defending and I think it will start boring like most years do but will end up being one of the more exciting games in recent FIRST history.

And as for the name of the game it's Aerial Assist because of the passing and catching over the trust. Not some super secret endgame in my opinion.

Agreed. The game seems rather barren at first glance, but the sheer amount of strategy and cooperation between teams that is required will make it very interesting very fast. Also, the Aerial being the truss makes more sense than most theories about the name. As much as I do like the idea of FIRST throwing a wrench into the works to avoid people just copying Ri3D and make everyone be more creative, I doubt it will happen.

[asid61]

First of all, I think this is a good game. Even though this is only my second year in FIRST, I have looked at many older games, and most are extremely supportive of "independent" robots, not really team players. The challenge this year makes the gap between "super-teams" and rookies much smaller IMO because robots will need to rely on each other. And even less sophisticated robots can compete.
An endgame might be added, but I think that it will have to do with cooperation.