The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game

[Shocker300]

This speculation is very interesting and it would add a great deal of excitement to the game its self. Right now to me the game seems somewhat boring and a blur to watch.

[snowmobiler9]

Originally Posted by TucoSalamanc

This just got posted to /r/frc but was quickly deleted (by the mods I think). I think this endgame is becoming a Half Life 3 type of thing.

See the notes.

That is a photoshopped version of the truss team drawing provided. The mod more than likely took it down due to it's "incorrect" information.

The actual note says "Glue, staple or screw where neccesary"

[Trailblazer2165]

After watching the animation of the game again, it is illuminating to notice that the four human players stationed at the sides of the field serve no purpose at all, since the third human player of each alliance is the one who takes the ball from the pedestal and puts it into play (inbounding)! So there could very well be more to the game. The comment at rules G11 and G40 imply robot-human interaction of an unknown sort. Here's what they say:

Passing a BALL to a HUMAN PLAYER is within game play and not a violation of G11.
If not actively engaged with receiving or releasing a BALL, we strongly recommend that TEAMS stay fully behind the HUMAN PLAYER BARRIER during the MATCH. (G40)

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by Trailblazer2165

After watching the animation of the game again, it is illuminating to notice that the four human players stationed at the sides of the field serve no purpose at all, since the third human player of each alliance is the one who takes the ball from the pedestal and puts it into play (inbounding)! So there could very well be more to the game. The comment at rules G11 and G40 imply robot-human interaction of an unknown sort. Here's what they say:

Passing a BALL to a HUMAN PLAYER is within game play and not a violation of G11.
If not actively engaged with receiving or releasing a BALL, we strongly recommend that TEAMS stay fully behind the HUMAN PLAYER BARRIER during the MATCH. (G40)

What is "unknown" about that? The rules and game video both state that robots can pass and receive balls from the HPs.

[rzoeller]

My major motivation for believing in any of these modified-game theories is that this happens in industry all the time, especially in software development. Programming for a company almost always requires you to be following a moving target, with features being added and removed faster than the programmers can even document them.

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by Magnetorb

I don't like how there's not much that we can do in the way of defense other than deflecting balls and playing goalie. It's almost all offense. Games are more fun when you can steal the ball, etc. It seems like there has to be more to this game.

Compared to previous FRC games, there are a ton of defensive opportunities here. You know you can block your opponents' robots as much as you want, right?

[rzoeller]

Originally Posted by bduddy

Compared to previous FRC games, there are a ton of defensive opportunities here. You know you can block your opponents' robots as much as you want, right?

I'd be careful with that though. Defending a robot possessing a ball could be an easy way to be ruled as possessing it yourself, if you make any sort of meaningful contact.

[kmusa]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

Considering what the fields cost (hundreds of thousands of dollars), this not a surprise to me at all.

The fact that it's COTS is also nice, as they don't need to get some things designed and welded.

$3k per field is not bad compared to the cost of the above engineering and fabrication time. It's also nothing compared to the cost of the field.

This.

If FIRST wanted a free-standing structure that can span approx 27' [1] without significant droop across the span, that is easily transportable, will withstand balls bouncing off of it, and should survive an occasional impact by a dysfunctional robot, a standard lighting truss is a quick and cost-effective solution.

Just because one could hang 800+ pounds from the center, doesn't mean one must.

-Karlis

[1] Yes, the field is 25' wide this year. Determining if they narrowed it slightly to simplify erecting the truss is left as an exercise for the reader.

[Racer26]

Originally Posted by bduddy

Compared to previous FRC games, there are a ton of defensive opportunities here. You know you can block your opponents' robots as much as you want, right?

I agree that Aerial Assist DOES allow for much more physical defence than many recent FRC games, but its simply untrue that you can block your opponents "as much as you want".

Originally Posted by 2014 FRC Game Manual

<G29>
An ALLIANCE may not pin an opponent ROBOT for more than five (5) seconds. A ROBOT will be considered pinned until the ROBOTS have separated by at least six (6) ft. The pinning ROBOT(S) must then wait for at least three (3) seconds before attempting to pin the same ROBOT again. Pinning is transitory through other objects.

Violation: TECHNICAL FOUL


<Bluebox>If the pinned ROBOT chases the pinning ROBOT upon retreat, the pinning ROBOT will not be penalized per G29, and the pin will be considered complete.</Bluebox>

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by Racer26

I agree that Aerial Assist DOES allow for much more physical defence than many recent FRC games, but its simply untrue that you can block your opponents "as much as you want".

I was taking that rule as a given. It's been in FRC for a long time.

I would be surprised if there isn't something in the first Team Update addressing this "rumor".

[kmusa]

Originally Posted by rzoeller

I'd be careful with that though. Defending a robot possessing a ball could be an easy way to be ruled as possessing it yourself, if you make any sort of meaningful contact.

Let's see... We have

Herding or launching imply possession.

Bulldozing does not.

Now we may have possession by both robots.

Is it just me, or will all of the referees and drive team coaches be bald by the end of competition season, as everyone tries to understand what truly defines possession?

"Oh, no Mr. Official, Sir. We weren't trying to deflect our opponent's ball into the far corner of the field. We were driving around, and it just happened to bounce off of us."

-Karlis

( who believes that the GDC is waiting for a water game, to finally replace their FIRST dictionary with one from Merriam-Webster )

[dag0620]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

Considering what the fields cost (hundreds of thousands of dollars), this not a surprise to me at all.

To add to this, to give you a rough idea on what a field costs, when loaning them for off-season events, teams have to take out insurance for up to $47,000, for the physical field itself. Throw in the electronics and you have to have coverage up to $173,000. Keep in mind that is just what FIRST would want covered if something happened. The actual prices could certainly be even more.

My point is this, while trusses from most of our perspectives are expensive, in the scheme of what the field costs, they are really a smaller addition.

Remember that most of these fields have to endure anywhere from 5 to 8 competitions during the season, and even longer for off-season events. Plus remember all the abuse they take from on the field action, set-up, take-down, and transport.

FIRST needs something strong that will withstand. By using trusses, they get that, while using a COTS item to save on costs. There's nothing more to the inclusion of them than that.

On a side note: (Something really not important but that has been bugging me)

People keep saying how FIRST has experiences with trusses from using them at regional events. The trusses you see at the regional events are typically owned by the production companies FIRST contracts for the events. It's the production crew that has to fly the trusses, and the curtains, lights, and speakers that hang off of them. That is not the responsibility of FIRST staff or volunteers.

[AndrewPospeshil]

One thing I think is almost definite is that if there's an added end game, it won't be a hanging challenge. This wouldn't necessarily provide any benefits, seeing as this year's hang on the truss allows for only one level (even though most teams did only one level hang last year, there was at least the capacity to do three) and it was literally just done. I don't think FIRST would reuse the exact same objective as last year, so we are left to deduce that there's a good chance the end game will involve the human players at least a little bit. Maybe not to score like last year, but they can possibly grab more than one ball and place it on the field???? I really don't know, but the human players have almost no role and I feel like they will become at least a little more involved later on. Assuming something is added, of course.

[synth3tk]

Originally Posted by TucoSalamanc

This just got posted to /r/frc but was quickly deleted (by the mods I think).

Not seeing it on any of the logs/queues. PM me the link to the thread.

[TucoSalamanc]

Originally Posted by synth3tk

Not seeing it on any of the logs/queues. PM me the link to the thread.

I browsed the subreddit through imgur (http://imgur.com/r/frc) as I was only looking for visual posts (searching for that offseason drivetrain posted a few days ago). Is there a way it can be in the imgur subreddit, but not the real one? I have a link but don't want the guy flamed, should I PM it to you?