Programming dumbed down even more.

[JohnSchneider]

Originally Posted by krieck

I agree that autonomous seems less challenging this year.

Really?

[criogod]

Nice, before reading this thread I admit I had pretty low expectations for programming difficulty this year. I hope I get to see all these awesome features at competition!

[Bryan Herbst]

I think the core problem here isn't necessarily that autonomous is inherently less challenging than previous years, but that the way FIRST presents autonomous doesn't present an obvious challenge to some teams.

FIRST always provides some low hanging fruit for autonomous mode. The vision targets, extra points for scoring in autonomous, and mobility points are clear examples of things you can do with your robot in autonomous.

However, there are plenty of higher hanging fruit that FIRST doesn't necessarily point out for teams. FIRST expects that teams that can go above an beyond a basic autonomous mode are also capable of defining their own stretch goals to challenge themselves.

What I take issue with in this thread is the complain that FIRST hasn't made anything challenging necessary. My first response is that FIRST doesn't make any programming strictly necessary- you don't need to program a single line of code to make a robot that can be placed on the field.

It is up to the teams to define their own requirements for their code. FIRST does none of this. Your team can (and should) define requirements that are appropriate for your programmer's skill levels.

[bvisness]

Originally Posted by Storcky

Not directly related to this thread but I think that the mobility bonus is more of a strategy thing than a "let's make this easy for rookies" thing. Yes it is a simple thing to do but you can’t get the bonus if you start in the goalie zone and therefore you must make the decision of whether it's more important to start in the goalie zone to attempt to stop a ball shot by a the other alliance (also a huge programming challenge IMO - tracking incoming balls and getting in front of them to block with only 6" will require a lot of accuracy) or have your alliance partner start there so that you can attempt a 2 ball auto without the risk of them moving the ball from where you're expecting it to be or get those guaranteed points.

Hmm, I hadn't thought about that. That's an interesting tradeoff to keep in mind.

[bvisness]

Originally Posted by Tanis

However, there are plenty of higher hanging fruit that FIRST doesn't necessarily point out for teams. FIRST expects that teams that can go above an beyond a basic autonomous mode are also capable of defining their own stretch goals to challenge themselves.

And teams who can pull off a more complex autonomous are going to be very desirable in alliance selections - last year we were able to consistently score 5 discs in autonomous, and that was enough to get us to Galileo finals despite seeding low.

[JohnGilb]

A lot of the challenge in FRC programming isn't usually in achieving the objective, whatever it may be that year - many teams are capable of doing that.

What _is_ challenging is making a system that is reliable and robust. Being able to handle complications that challenge common assumptions is a significant advantage. You don't want to be this guy:

-Our robot will always start the match where I expect.
-Well, at least facing the goal.
-Or apparently in the goalie zone?
-Well, we'll know far enough in advance where the robot is going to be that we can plan for it - nobody is going to make a last minute change.
-And the ball will be preloaded in the correct manner every time.
-Well, close enough to just start the normal firing sequence, right?
-You're kidding?
-Ok, so after we deal with all this, we'll go grab the ball that our partner put right where we expect it.
-Really? Well, it'll be close enough.
-Or if it isn't, we'll be able to find it using vision. The ball will look the same at every event, and at every match in the event.
-Oh, some of the lighting changed? Well, whatever it is will definitely start in view of our camera, and our opponents in the goalie zone won't be blue or red, so no worries.
...

And that's just related to autonomous. Highly competitive FRC robots need to be robust and have incredible uptime, despite the fact that most of them are one-of-a-kind prototypes being tested in the field.
-Can you rapidly tune robot parameters without having to redeploy code?
-If the cRIO crashes and needs to be flashed right before a match, do you have a copy of all the code & configuration data nearby and ready to download?
-Can you handle sensors breaking down or being ripped from the robot in the middle of a match?
-Can you rapidly change your auto program based on the ever-evolving needs of the drive team during qualifications and eliminations, and be confident that the robot will do exactly what you want?

This list could go on and on. Ever year, I wish there were 15 programmers on our team, so that we would be proud of our answers to questions like these. There's always some way to make your robot better, or to prepare for "complications."

[techhelpbb]

If anyone is bored and wants a challenge build your robot mechanical systems in a strange way and make programming synchronize 2 PID loops to make it work at all.

I bet you'll not be bored much longer once you start

or

Write your own vision system from scratch. No shortcuts like OpenCV get down and dirty.

I know FIRST teams can do these things so I am not setting anyone up for something impossible. Just demonstrating that FIRST hardly is short on challenges.

[JohnFogarty]

It's raining negative rep points up in here.

For all intents and purposes of coming into this thread. I too disagree with the OP.

[Akash Rastogi]

Hypnotoad, if you post which team you are from, I'd love to track how successful your 2 and 3 ball autonomous modes are this year. I'd also love to see your Hot goal scoring percentage at the end of the season.

Good luck, happy to hear there are teams who are so confident in themselves.

By the way, autonomous functions don't end after 10 seconds. Feel free to make a fully automated scoring robot.

[Wildcats1378]

Originally Posted by yash101

I also think that you just are losing your enlightenment and creativity.
Also, it isn't necessarily getting easier. The ball is much harder to handle this year and an aiming system will be harder to implement because of the greater effect of gravity!

well, for autonomous, you just have to put your robot in the same spot every match (isn't hard since there is a line you have to stay behind and the goals are huge), wait until you see the hot goal, and fire. only hard part may be picking up others balls, but other than that it is really pretty easy compared to previous years.

[Laaba 80]

I wish Hypnotoad had left the last paragraph out of his first post. Instead of having a worthwhile discussion whether autonomous is becoming simpler, it turned into everyone teaming up against a high school student. It can be hard for a high school student to realize they are wrong, or when they are arguing instead of debating; I was the same way, and quite possibly still am. Nothing will be gained by telling him he's wrong and has things to work on, nor by him telling everyone else he has nothing to work on. If a team wants to do all kinds of awesome complex programming that's great, and if a team wants to just have basic functionality that's great too.

I hope we can all get back to his intended topic, or create a new thread for a fresh start.

Originally Posted by Tanis

FIRST always provides some low hanging fruit for autonomous mode. The vision targets, extra points for scoring in autonomous, and mobility points are clear examples of things you can do with your robot in autonomous.

However, there are plenty of higher hanging fruit that FIRST doesn't necessarily point out for teams. FIRST expects that teams that can go above an beyond a basic autonomous mode are also capable of defining their own stretch goals to challenge themselves..

This is a great point. In my opinion, FIRST started adding the low hanging fruit in 2010. Since then there has been a simple(ish) task a team can do so they can complete "their autonomous task." Ex: scoring an ubertube, scoring your preloaded balls/frisbees. There has also been a much harder task for more advanced software teams to complete. Ex: 2 ubertubes, picking up and scoring extra balls/frisbees. I think this is a great thing.

From 2006-2009, there really wasn't a viable "robot autonomous task." In 2008 our robot was only able to cross one line and get four points. As the programmer and driver, I often felt like I was letting our alliance down by not having a higher scoring auto, and at times it seemed other teams felt we were letting them down. What they didn't know is that I had written a four line auto that would knock both our balls down(0% chance of working; I was an optimistic sophomore) but never had time to work with the robot due to that being a long build season for us. It really was not a positive experience for anyone on our alliance.

All that to say: I think FIRST has done a phenomenal job of late providing a simple(ish) task so teams can feel they did their jobs and contributed to the alliance, while still allowing more skilled teams to do more for extra points.

[sanddrag]

Originally Posted by Mr. Lim

Good programmers always find a better way to do something, especially when it's not obvious where those improvements can be found.

No offense, but as a programming mentor on my team, if anyone came up to me and exclaimed that there were no worthwhile programming challenges this year, I'd promptly ask them to leave the team, and give my time to someone who's got a different perspective towards what it takes to build a world class robot...

Originally Posted by bvisness

And if you're stuck and don't know what to do with your code? Why not try teaching a new team member how your code works? Why not have them try coding an autonomous routine? Raging against the GDC this way isn't particularly effective, especially when you could be coming up with creative ways to help your team.

Originally Posted by wireties

Ditto - this young person's attitude is poison in a team effort. Hopefully a mentor on his/her team will counsel him/her.

Originally Posted by Laaba 80

I wish Hypnotoad had left the last paragraph out of his first post. Instead of having a worthwhile discussion whether autonomous is becoming simpler, it turned into everyone teaming up against a high school student. It can be hard for a high school student to realize they are wrong, or when they are arguing instead of debating; I was the same way, and quite possibly still am. Nothing will be gained by telling him he's wrong and has things to work on, nor by him telling everyone else he has nothing to work on. If a team wants to do all kinds of awesome complex programming that's great, and if a team wants to just have basic functionality that's great too.

I hope we can all get back to his intended topic, or create a new thread for a fresh start.

I completely agree with all of these points and they are very all well stated. I certainly give the OP credit for stirring the pot and starting a nice lively debate here, but I agree that his original post and a few of the subsequent ones are not well articulating his point, and did not carry a tone within the spirit of Gracious Professionalism that his team has worked hard to live by.

If I recall, I found myself in a similar situation on ChiefDelphi several years ago, and several of the senior members of the forum messaged me to let me know the errors of my ways. So, I decided to do the same, and I've been communicating privately with Hypnotoad.

What students need to remember, is that the internet is forever. It never forgets. While it may take years for a team to build its reputation in the FIRST community, it can all fall apart in an instant as a consequence of one team member's words or actions.

I think Hypnotoad now realizes that he has embarassed his team on a public forum, has realized that there is plenty of work to do, and has realized that he needs to really think twice before clicking the "Submit" button when posting. He has removed his team number and name, as to not let his posts reflect poorly upon the team he is involved with.

I'm going to kindly ask a moderator to close this thread, and if we'd like to start another where we discuss the level of challenge presented by this year's autonomous portion (without bashing the OP), then let's do that.

[MooreteP]

The Hypnotoad is a large toad with pulsating, multicolored eyes, which emits a loud, ominous buzzing noise. It has the power to hypnotize almost any living thing at will, even mass numbers of creatures. The Hypnotoad first appeared in "The Day the Earth Stood Stupid", in which it hypnotized a flock of sheep to herd themselves into a pen and close the door behind them, the panel of judges to win the pet show and then the audience of the pet show to force their approval of that victory. ~Wikipedia

Come on everyone, lighten up. You've been hypnotized by an Uber-troll.

It's a great game to use to teach our students about enough levels of programming to make them more competent with the skills needed to solve problems.

Enjoy the season and it's attendant challenges.

[bvisness]

Originally Posted by JohnGilb

-Can you rapidly change your auto program based on the ever-evolving needs of the drive team during qualifications and eliminations, and be confident that the robot will do exactly what you want?

Tasks like that are what make robot programming interesting for me. Last year all our autonomous routines were laid out in .csv files, which we could FTP to the robot at a moment's notice. It made autonomous testing infinitely easier (especially considering LabVIEW's inexplicable compile times.)