Go to Post My wife thought the lead singer, Ozzy Kamen was cute. Darn those rockers. - Andy Baker [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > FIRST > General Forum
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Reply
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 2 votes, 5.00 average. Display Modes
  #16   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-01-2014, 18:02
notmattlythgoe's Avatar
notmattlythgoe notmattlythgoe is offline
Flywheel Police
AKA: Matthew Lythgoe
FRC #2363 (Triple Helix)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: Newport News, VA
Posts: 1,729
notmattlythgoe has a reputation beyond reputenotmattlythgoe has a reputation beyond reputenotmattlythgoe has a reputation beyond reputenotmattlythgoe has a reputation beyond reputenotmattlythgoe has a reputation beyond reputenotmattlythgoe has a reputation beyond reputenotmattlythgoe has a reputation beyond reputenotmattlythgoe has a reputation beyond reputenotmattlythgoe has a reputation beyond reputenotmattlythgoe has a reputation beyond reputenotmattlythgoe has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Suggestions for resolving stuck balls

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyBare View Post
3.1.2 MATCH Logistics
Although an ALLIANCE may start a MATCH with up to three (3) BALLS, the PEDESTAL will only be illuminated when the last BALL that started the MATCH is SCORED, effectively reducing the number of BALLS in play per ALLIANCE to one (1).
I believe that just means on the field at the start of the match, that does not necessarily mean that there are only 3 balls available and those 3 balls are in a rotation of any sort.
Reply With Quote
  #17   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-01-2014, 18:02
Daniel_LaFleur's Avatar
Daniel_LaFleur Daniel_LaFleur is offline
Mad Scientist
AKA: Me
FRC #2040 (DERT)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Peoria, IL
Posts: 1,979
Daniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via MSN to Daniel_LaFleur
Re: Suggestions for resolving stuck balls

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyBare View Post
3.1.2 MATCH Logistics
Although an ALLIANCE may start a MATCH with up to three (3) BALLS, the PEDESTAL will only be illuminated when the last BALL that started the MATCH is SCORED, effectively reducing the number of BALLS in play per ALLIANCE to one (1).
All that states is that there are 3 balls that start in play (during autonomous) not that there are only 3 balls of a specific color that are cycled.
__________________
___________________
"We are not now that strength which in old days moved earth and heaven; that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts, Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. "
- Tennyson, Ulysses
Reply With Quote
  #18   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-01-2014, 18:23
Aaron.Graeve Aaron.Graeve is offline
Registered User
FRC #1477 (Texas Torque)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Rookie Year: 2012
Location: College Station, Texas
Posts: 103
Aaron.Graeve is a name known to allAaron.Graeve is a name known to allAaron.Graeve is a name known to allAaron.Graeve is a name known to allAaron.Graeve is a name known to allAaron.Graeve is a name known to all
Re: Suggestions for resolving stuck balls

When I read 3.1.2, It seemed to me that the rule is only refering to balls in play on the field or with the human player (bearing in mind my interpretation is far from official). I trust that the field crew would have more than 3 balls per alliance. If one were to go flat in an irreparable way, that would adversely affect high powered alliances that intended to use all of their balls in auto later in the tournament.

I would compare this to the number of discs at competitions last year. Events had disks to spare on off chance that one was destroyed or damaged beyond reasonable use, even though the game manual only specified a particular number of game pieces to be in-game. I think (again in no official capacity) that there would be more that three balls "in cycle" at any given time but only one of them would be in-play. I have seen nothing indicating that the pedestal would be empty and lit at the same time (the condition if a there was a shortage of balls) and the field tour videos seem to indicate there would always be a ball waiting.

This is just my unofficial opinion.
__________________

2016:
Alamo, Bayou, and Lone Star Regional FTAA
2015:
Dallas, Alamo, Bayou, and Lone Star Regional FTAA
2014:
Alamo, Dallas, and Lone Star Regional FTAA
Alamo Regional Robot Inspector
2013:
Einstein Champion and 2013 World Champion (Thanks 1241 & 610), Galileo Division Champion, Razorback Regional Winner, Alamo Regional Semifinalist, Bayou Regional Semifinalist, Lone Star Regional Quarterfinialist
2012:
Curie Division Semifinalist, Lone Star Regional Finalist, Bayou Regional Winner, Alamo Regional Winner
Reply With Quote
  #19   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-01-2014, 18:35
AndyBare AndyBare is offline
CAD Design and CNC Machinist
FRC #1261 (Robo Lions)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Rookie Year: 2011
Location: Burnsville, NC
Posts: 200
AndyBare is a glorious beacon of lightAndyBare is a glorious beacon of lightAndyBare is a glorious beacon of lightAndyBare is a glorious beacon of lightAndyBare is a glorious beacon of lightAndyBare is a glorious beacon of light
Re: Suggestions for resolving stuck balls

Oh. Thanks. The way I read it, it was unclear. I do believe you are right though. More than 3 cycle. Apologies.
Reply With Quote
  #20   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-01-2014, 20:52
GaryVoshol's Avatar
GaryVoshol GaryVoshol is offline
Cogito ergo arbitro
no team
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Royal Oak, MI
Posts: 5,757
GaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Suggestions for resolving stuck balls

A ROBOT is carrying a BALL and commits an offense that results in the ROBOT being DISABLED. I don't want to seem heartless, but really, why should the alliance get another ball in play? They should have encouraged their partner to play correctly and not get DISABLED.

A ROBOT is built to carry a BALL, but sometimes the BALL gets stuck in the ROBOT. Again, tough luck. That's the way you designed it.

A ROBOT unexpectedly stops running while carrying a BALL. Unless it can be shown to be a field fault (comms) and the match replayed, then it's another case of "too bad".

A BALL gets stuck on the TRUSS - I'd rather see the TRUSS redesigned so that a ball can't get stuck, but that raises the height of the top of the TRUSS. So I could see a "semi-field-fault" called here, with a unique remedy of introducing a new BALL. The one on the TRUSS is declared debris. It will make it a little harder for the refs to track the POSSESSIONS, but that's why we get the big bucks.

So we're left with E-stopping. I am wary that if a ROBOT is acting sluggish (low battery maybe?) the team will E-stop. That's not what it's for. In the past, there were even rules for a red card for E-stopping when it's not an emergency. For a true emergency, I can see introducing a new BALL or declaring a replay of the match. But I don't want to be deciding if the E-stop was required or not. And I don't want to tempt teams that are having less than desired performance to push the red button. If the GDC can figure out that problem, then they can decide what the remedy will be for an E-stopped ROBOT.
__________________
(since 2004)
Reply With Quote
  #21   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-01-2014, 21:03
AndyBare AndyBare is offline
CAD Design and CNC Machinist
FRC #1261 (Robo Lions)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Rookie Year: 2011
Location: Burnsville, NC
Posts: 200
AndyBare is a glorious beacon of lightAndyBare is a glorious beacon of lightAndyBare is a glorious beacon of lightAndyBare is a glorious beacon of lightAndyBare is a glorious beacon of lightAndyBare is a glorious beacon of light
Re: Suggestions for resolving stuck balls

Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryVoshol View Post
A BALL gets stuck on the TRUSS - I'd rather see the TRUSS redesigned so that a ball can't get stuck, but that raises the height of the top of the TRUSS. So I could see a "semi-field-fault" called here, with a unique remedy of introducing a new BALL. The one on the TRUSS is declared debris. It will make it a little harder for the refs to track the POSSESSIONS, but that's why we get the big bucks.
What happens when the team uses the newly entered ball to knock the "debris" one off the truss. Then there are two balls on the field.
Reply With Quote
  #22   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-01-2014, 21:15
Grim Tuesday's Avatar
Grim Tuesday Grim Tuesday is offline
Registered User
AKA: Simon Bohn
FRC #0639 (Code Red)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: Baltimore MD (JHU)
Posts: 1,607
Grim Tuesday has a reputation beyond reputeGrim Tuesday has a reputation beyond reputeGrim Tuesday has a reputation beyond reputeGrim Tuesday has a reputation beyond reputeGrim Tuesday has a reputation beyond reputeGrim Tuesday has a reputation beyond reputeGrim Tuesday has a reputation beyond reputeGrim Tuesday has a reputation beyond reputeGrim Tuesday has a reputation beyond reputeGrim Tuesday has a reputation beyond reputeGrim Tuesday has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Suggestions for resolving stuck balls

Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryVoshol View Post
A ROBOT is carrying a BALL and commits an offense that results in the ROBOT being DISABLED. I don't want to seem heartless, but really, why should the alliance get another ball in play? They should have encouraged their partner to play correctly and not get DISABLED.

A ROBOT is built to carry a BALL, but sometimes the BALL gets stuck in the ROBOT. Again, tough luck. That's the way you designed it.

A ROBOT unexpectedly stops running while carrying a BALL. Unless it can be shown to be a field fault (comms) and the match replayed, then it's another case of "too bad".

A BALL gets stuck on the TRUSS - I'd rather see the TRUSS redesigned so that a ball can't get stuck, but that raises the height of the top of the TRUSS. So I could see a "semi-field-fault" called here, with a unique remedy of introducing a new BALL. The one on the TRUSS is declared debris. It will make it a little harder for the refs to track the POSSESSIONS, but that's why we get the big bucks.

So we're left with E-stopping. I am wary that if a ROBOT is acting sluggish (low battery maybe?) the team will E-stop. That's not what it's for. In the past, there were even rules for a red card for E-stopping when it's not an emergency. For a true emergency, I can see introducing a new BALL or declaring a replay of the match. But I don't want to be deciding if the E-stop was required or not. And I don't want to tempt teams that are having less than desired performance to push the red button. If the GDC can figure out that problem, then they can decide what the remedy will be for an E-stopped ROBOT.

I understand the sentiment of "too bad" as a design challenge but I think it is unfair to punish so harshly teams in qualification rounds for the design failures of their randomly selected partners.

In most FRC games, having bad partners is part of the game: If someone doesn't move, they can't score points and your alliance can't reach it's maximum potential. However, if the combined power of your alliance's two robots is better than the three of the opposing alliance, you will still win. This is how it should be and leads to mostly accurate rankings.

In this years game, if your randomly selected alliance partner fails to move at all like so many excellent teams have done in the past, even on Einstein, none of the other alliance robots are allowed to play the game through no fault of their own.

This is not fair. Many teams only get 8 or 9 matches per season to play. How can you take one away from them due to the fault of another robot? Not only will they lose but they don't even get to play.

Now, in eliminations, I would argue that "you failed, too bad" as a design challenge is fair. You pick your partners and you shouldn't have picked someone who isn't reliable. That said, I don't think it is a good gameplay element. As we've seen in Einstein 2011, 2012, and 2013, robots very often become incapacitated before or during matches even at exceedingly high levels of play. For teams it is already discouraging enough to have an alliance partner not working, should we put the nail in their coffin by saying "sorry, you aren't allowed to score any more points by yourselves either"? And to spectators, it isn't fun to not watch one robot move but it's even fun to realize that an entire alliance is not allowed to score points anymore due to one failed robot.


My proposition:

Add a new button with a different connotation from E-Stop, call it E-Disable or something. When it is pushed, it disables the robot connected to it for the rest of the match and specifies that anything that the robot and anything it is possessing is considered field debris for the rest of the match. Restart the cycle by entering a new ball into play immediately as if a ball had just been scored. No penalty for using other than robot is disabled for the rest of the match.

Put a blue box underneath the rule specifying that this should be used in cases where teams believe they will be unable to restart their robot and wish to declare it dead in the water so their alliance may play on. Utilizing it in cases to gain a competitive advantage otherwise is prohibited. Violation: Red Card.


If "you failed, too bad" is the challenge the GDC was going for then don't allow the use of this button in eliminations. My personal opinion is they should allow it, because it makes it a more interesting game for everyone involved.

As for the truss, construct a very slight incline (maybe 1") with the same material used for the incline in the low goal so a ball rolls off. Don't make a new rule for what happens if the ball gets stuck because it won't.

Last edited by Grim Tuesday : 07-01-2014 at 22:54.
Reply With Quote
  #23   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-01-2014, 22:35
atucker4072's Avatar
atucker4072 atucker4072 is offline
Andrew Tucker
AKA: Andrew Tucker
FTC #4968 (Rapid Robotics)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Rookie Year: 2011
Location: Glenwood Springs, Co
Posts: 152
atucker4072 has a spectacular aura aboutatucker4072 has a spectacular aura aboutatucker4072 has a spectacular aura about
Re: Suggestions for resolving stuck balls

I read the game manual and may have missed this but couldn't the robot drive to the hp and the hp take the ball out? Not sure if this is a safety issue or not.
Reply With Quote
  #24   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-01-2014, 22:41
TheMadCADer TheMadCADer is offline
Registered User
no team
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: Austin
Posts: 218
TheMadCADer has a brilliant futureTheMadCADer has a brilliant futureTheMadCADer has a brilliant futureTheMadCADer has a brilliant futureTheMadCADer has a brilliant futureTheMadCADer has a brilliant futureTheMadCADer has a brilliant futureTheMadCADer has a brilliant futureTheMadCADer has a brilliant futureTheMadCADer has a brilliant futureTheMadCADer has a brilliant future
Re: Suggestions for resolving stuck balls

Quote:
Originally Posted by atucker4072 View Post
I read the game manual and may have missed this but couldn't the robot drive to the hp and the hp take the ball out? Not sure if this is a safety issue or not.
Human Players are not allowed to contact a ball also in contact with a robot (G41).
Reply With Quote
  #25   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-01-2014, 22:49
atucker4072's Avatar
atucker4072 atucker4072 is offline
Andrew Tucker
AKA: Andrew Tucker
FTC #4968 (Rapid Robotics)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Rookie Year: 2011
Location: Glenwood Springs, Co
Posts: 152
atucker4072 has a spectacular aura aboutatucker4072 has a spectacular aura aboutatucker4072 has a spectacular aura about
Re: Suggestions for resolving stuck balls

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMadCADer View Post
Human Players are not allowed to contact a ball also in contact with a robot (G41).
Thank you. Wasn't sure on it.
Reply With Quote
  #26   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-01-2014, 22:49
themccannman's Avatar
themccannman themccannman is offline
registered lurker
AKA: Jake McCann
FRC #3501
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Rookie Year: 2011
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 432
themccannman has a reputation beyond reputethemccannman has a reputation beyond reputethemccannman has a reputation beyond reputethemccannman has a reputation beyond reputethemccannman has a reputation beyond reputethemccannman has a reputation beyond reputethemccannman has a reputation beyond reputethemccannman has a reputation beyond reputethemccannman has a reputation beyond reputethemccannman has a reputation beyond reputethemccannman has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Suggestions for resolving stuck balls

Quote:
Originally Posted by atucker4072 View Post
I read the game manual and may have missed this but couldn't the robot drive to the hp and the hp take the ball out? Not sure if this is a safety issue or not.
Human Players are not allowed to reach inside the field or touch a ball a robot is possessing. Also, more often than not the robot that is having trouble getting rid of the ball probably isn't functional at all and can't drive. Robots disconnect much more often than mechanisms jam.
__________________
All posts here are purely my own opinion.
2011-2015: 1678
2016: 846
2017 - current: 3501
Reply With Quote
  #27   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 08-01-2014, 00:00
Hallry's Avatar
Hallry Hallry is offline
Dare to be FIRST
AKA: Ryan Hall
FRC #1676 (Pascack Pi-oneers)
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: Woodcliff Lake NJ *Now in Newark DE
Posts: 2,693
Hallry has a reputation beyond reputeHallry has a reputation beyond reputeHallry has a reputation beyond reputeHallry has a reputation beyond reputeHallry has a reputation beyond reputeHallry has a reputation beyond reputeHallry has a reputation beyond reputeHallry has a reputation beyond reputeHallry has a reputation beyond reputeHallry has a reputation beyond reputeHallry has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Suggestions for resolving stuck balls

Quote:
Originally Posted by yash101 View Post
If that happens, just ram into a side of the truss and hopefully you will energize it enough to fall down and get back into the game. These are big robots, not those tiny VEX robots (Sorry VEXers. Even I am a VEXer). We have the momentum to get a ball unstuck from the truss.
And you plan on 'ramming' the truss...where and how exactly?
__________________
[2009-2013]: Team 1676 Student, Co-CEO, Carpentry Lead
[2013-Present]: Team 1676 Alumnus/College Mentor

Won: 2010 New Jersey Regional, 2010 Virginia Regional (undefeated), 2011 New Jersey Regional, 2011 Virginia Regional, 2011 Brunswick Eruption, 2012 Rutgers MAR District, 2012 girlPOWER, 2012 Ramp Riot, 2013 Bridgewater-Raritan MAR District, 2014 girlPOWER, 2015 Bridgewater-Raritan MAR District, 2016 Mt. Olive MAR District, 2016 Bridgewater-Raritan MAR District
2016 Season Recap Video: http://tinyurl.com/1676-2016
Facebook Instagram Twitter YouTube
Reply With Quote
  #28   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 08-01-2014, 00:22
RallyJeff's Avatar
RallyJeff RallyJeff is offline
FRC Referee & FLL Many-Hats-Wearer
AKA: Jeff Hagan
no team
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Rookie Year: 1995
Location: Windsor, ON, CA
Posts: 58
RallyJeff has a spectacular aura aboutRallyJeff has a spectacular aura aboutRallyJeff has a spectacular aura about
Re: Suggestions for resolving stuck balls

Quote:
Originally Posted by jee7s View Post
That's potentially problematic. Say this scenario occurs and the new ball is introduced. But, at a later time the ball on the truss then experiences an outside force (another ball, a vibration, a strong breeze) and ceases to be at rest. Then the ball falls onto the floor and there are two balls of that color in play. How do you know which is the legal ball?
FYI - G35 already creates the potential for one "debris" ball and one "legal" ball of the same colour on the field at the same time:

Quote:
G35
BALLS may only be retrieved from the PEDESTAL and only if the PEDESTAL is lit in the ALLIANCE’s color.

Violation: TECHNICAL FOUL. If the BALL is entered into the FIELD, a second TECHNICAL FOUL and the BALL is considered FIELD debris.
Reply With Quote
  #29   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 08-01-2014, 00:28
Whippet's Avatar
Whippet Whippet is offline
MIT Class of 2020
AKA: Luis Trueba
FRC #4301 (New Tech Narcissists)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Rookie Year: 2011
Location: Cambridge, MA
Posts: 1,187
Whippet has a reputation beyond reputeWhippet has a reputation beyond reputeWhippet has a reputation beyond reputeWhippet has a reputation beyond reputeWhippet has a reputation beyond reputeWhippet has a reputation beyond reputeWhippet has a reputation beyond reputeWhippet has a reputation beyond reputeWhippet has a reputation beyond reputeWhippet has a reputation beyond reputeWhippet has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via Yahoo to Whippet
Re: Suggestions for resolving stuck balls

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hallry View Post
And you plan on 'ramming' the truss...where and how exactly?
With the opposing ALLIANCE's BALL as their ALLIANCE partners watch in shock as TECHNICAL FOULs rack up...
__________________
2010: FRC 3043, Build Assistant
2011: FRC 3043, Head of Minibot subteam; FLL 12762, Team Captain
2012: FRC 3043, Electrical; FLL 12762, Team Captain; FTC 5670, Team Captain
2013: FRC 4301, Electrical, Team Co-Captain
2014: FRC 4301, Electrical/Programming, Team Co-Captain
2015: FRC 4301, Electrical/Programming, Team Captain
2016: FRC 4301, Chief Technical Officer; FTC 10860, 10861, and 11004: Mentor. Winner, Hub City Regional (3310 & 4063)
Reply With Quote
  #30   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 08-01-2014, 00:32
Trez's Avatar
Trez Trez is offline
Registered User
FRC #3606
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: U.S.
Posts: 51
Trez is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Suggestions for resolving stuck balls

I say tough toe nails if a ball gets stuck in a robot. My team has had alliance mates hit our robot and disrupt shooting during Reboundrumble. A ball could get stuck after a score has been made. So unless the ball is stuck from the start it's not a hopeless problem.
__________________
Prototype, Prototype, Prototype
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:31.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi