Suggestions for resolving stuck balls

[DampRobot]

Originally Posted by ToddF

During teleop, if a team feels their robot is dead, they may hit the estop. If the ball is released from the robot within 10 seconds, no other action is necessary, and their only penalty results from potential loss of alliance points. If the ball remains stuck after 10 seconds, that ball is considered dead, and the pedestal light is lit, allowing a replacement to be introduced. That team is issued a yellow card.

I like the yellow card idea. It's ok to use this once in a true emergency in quals (your code goes off the deep end, a major mechanical failure, etc.), but you'll learn your lesson after the first time. If it was the fault of your mechanism, you will learn not to pick up another ball or be DQed from the next match you try.

I'd also like alliance partners to be able to disable another robot to get the ball declared debris.

[Bob Steele]

Originally Posted by yash101

I think that that is one of our least worries. Of all cases, the ball would rarely get stuck on the truss. If that happens, just ram into a side of the truss and hopefully you will energize it enough to fall down and get back into the game. These are big robots, not those tiny VEX robots (Sorry VEXers. Even I am a VEXer). We have the momentum to get a ball unstuck from the truss.


Other than that, how about we shut our mouths and stop giving suggestions? You all saw how they check CD and what their reaction to asking for game hints was! I think this time, let's just calm down and see how they react, because they want everything to be (at least seem like) a surprise!

Good luck and hopefully y'all get a functional robot up-and-running!

I might be wrong but when I read the update I thought they were asking for feedback from Chief volunteers. I could be wrong but I think they are looking for input.

After reading the comment below I guess I would retract this statement.
However, I do think that many of these volunteers read and honor the comments made on CD and welcome the input
I do believe that products and ideas developed by many minds working together are usually better than the work of a small number

I will respectfully continue to voice ideas through the medium of CD

[Hallry]

Originally Posted by Bob Steele

I might be wrong but when I read the update I thought they were asking for feedback from Chief volunteers. I could be wrong but I think they are looking for input.

I thought the same thing at first, but by 'Chief volunteers,' I believe they were referring to the actual position titles.

[Racer26]

My feelings on the matter?

1) BALLs on the TRUSS.

I think a BALL stuck on the TRUSS will be an exceedingly rare occurrence. It might happen one or two times through the entire season. I am OK with declaring it a FIELD FAULT purely because of this rarity. I agree it isn't technically a failure of the field, but this seems like the simplest remedy. The alternative in my mind, is if FMS can allow pausing a MATCH in progress so that a Field Volunteer (Ref, Field Resetter, Whomever) can remove the BALL from the TRUSS, and return it to play in the center field area, allow them to safely get off the FIELD, and resume play.

2) BALLs stuck in responsive-but-not-functioning ROBOTs.

If your ROBOT is still responding, and not dead (perhaps with low battery, or your manipulators are just not working as designed), then I'm inclined to say tough. You should have designed your ROBOT better, or been better prepared for your MATCH.

3) BALLs stuck in non-responsive ROBOTs.

If a ROBOT is completely dead, and FMS/Driver Station no longer has communications to it (ie. the Stack Lights at their ALLIANCE STATION are flashing), then I'm inclined to allow the TEAM to hit their E-Stop Button, ensuring their ROBOT cannot return to the MATCH later. At that point, any BALLs in that ROBOT's POSSESSION become field debris, and a new BALL to replace could be set at the ALLIANCE's PEDESTAL. If at some later point during the MATCH, the BALL which is field debris ceases to be in the POSSESSION of the E-Stopped ROBOT, then FIELD FAULT.

[notmattlythgoe]

Originally Posted by Trez

I say tough toe nails if a ball gets stuck in a robot. My team has had alliance mates hit our robot and disrupt shooting during Reboundrumble. A ball could get stuck after a score has been made. So unless the ball is stuck from the start it's not a hopeless problem.

My only issue with this is you getting a ball stuck did not hinder the rest of your team from being able to score in the previous games like Rebound Rumble or Ultimate Ascent. When there is only one game piece in play and it gets stuck in a robot that effects the teams that you were randomly paired up with more than it would if there were other game pieces they could continue the game with. By placing another ball into play it will basically have the same effect on the game that it would have had if there were multiple balls in play, the team with the stuck ball becomes pretty useless but the other teams are not stuck with a pointless game for the rest of the match.

[KrazyCarl92]

Originally Posted by Grim Tuesday

My proposition:

Add a new button with a different connotation from E-Stop, call it E-Disable or something. When it is pushed, it disables the robot connected to it for the rest of the match and specifies that anything that the robot and anything it is possessing is considered field debris for the rest of the match. Restart the cycle by entering a new ball into play immediately as if a ball had just been scored. No penalty for using other than robot is disabled for the rest of the match.

Put a blue box underneath the rule specifying that this should be used in cases where teams believe they will be unable to restart their robot and wish to declare it dead in the water so their alliance may play on. Utilizing it in cases to gain a competitive advantage otherwise is prohibited. Violation: Red Card.


If "you failed, too bad" is the challenge the GDC was going for then don't allow the use of this button in eliminations. My personal opinion is they should allow it, because it makes it a more interesting game for everyone involved.

As for the truss, construct a very slight incline (maybe 1") with the same material used for the incline in the low goal so a ball rolls off. Don't make a new rule for what happens if the ball gets stuck because it won't.

This was my initial reaction to the game. Add a "my robot and everything in it is debris and disabled" button and the game is MUCH improved. It's still punishing for poor design: tough, you can't triple assist any more and you wasted time taking the ball and failing to do anything productive for your alliance. That's punishment enough but still allows the game to proceed for the other two alliance partners, just down a man.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by KrazyCarl92

This was my initial reaction to the game. Add a "my robot and everything in it is debris and disabled" button and the game is MUCH improved. It's still punishing for poor design: tough, you can't triple assist any more and you wasted time taking the ball and failing to do anything productive for your alliance. That's punishment enough but still allows the game to proceed for the other two alliance partners, just down a man.

Right now, it is a 'death penalty' for a robot to get disabled with a ball inside of it.

So ...

Design you bot so that it will release the ball if disabled/loses comms/loses power. This is easily done with a single acting spring return valve.

Small design decisions make big differences.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

Design you bot so that it will release the ball if disabled/loses comms/loses power. This is easily done with a single acting spring return valve.

Since the robot starts the match from a "disabled" state, your simple solution will prevent a ball from being held as the match begins.

I'll be suggesting a slightly more complex solution, with a plate or something on the side of the robot that releases the ball when pressed by another robot but which is mechanically inhibited whenever the robot is enabled.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

Since the robot starts the match from a "disabled" state, your simple solution will prevent a ball from being held as the match begins.

I'll be suggesting a slightly more complex solution, with a plate or something on the side of the robot that releases the ball when pressed by another robot but which is mechanically inhibited whenever the robot is enabled.

You are correct that the ball could not start inside the robot with my suggestion above, but that does not mean that you cannot pick it up at the start of autonomous as the ball can start touching (but not inside) your robot.

[Chris is me]

This is very simple. Return the E-Stop rules to the pre-2011 configuration. No red cards for using the E-stop. That's absolute nonsense. No one should ever have to stop and think if it's a good idea to hit a button that is partly intended for emergencies. There may be occasional strategic advantages to an E-Stop, but I don't see the penalty in allowing them to exist.

With that rule out of the way, you just need to make a rule saying that any game piece in POSESSION of a disabled ROBOT is now field debris. Done. It's simple, no judgement calls. No tracking multiple balls. If the ball comes loose it's still field debris, but no one should be disabling robots when they have the option to let go of the ball anyway. What's the problem with this approach?

[Adam Freeman]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

This is very simple. Return the E-Stop rules to the pre-2011 configuration. No red cards for using the E-stop. That's absolute nonsense. No one should ever have to stop and think if it's a good idea to hit a button that is partly intended for emergencies. There may be occasional strategic advantages to an E-Stop, but I don't see the penalty in allowing them to exist.

I agree with Chris's opinion on this one.

Every team from the very ELITE all the way too last years rookie teams have experienced some sort of "dead" robot at one point or another, either by their doing or the fields. To suggest that any robot that isn't designed such that the ball easily falls out of the robot when power/control is lost is a poorly designed robot is just ridiculous.

Almost any effective ball collector and ball security system worth it's weight is going to be designed such that it has a really good grip (#TouchItAndOwnIt). Not too mention really effective ball catchers, which would be designed to effectively contain the ball when it enters the robot.

It seems that the design your robot to "never be stuck with the ball" and the design your to be "effective at playing a sound strategy" are on opposite sides of the spectrum.

Pretty much losing a match for your alliance seems like a high penalty for designing a robot that is effective at playing this game.

We will do our best to ensure our design causes the least risk to our alliance for this rule, but not at the expense of effective strategy/design for the 99% of the time the robot is fully operational.

-Adam

[Caleb Sykes]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

This is very simple. Return the E-Stop rules to the pre-2011 configuration. No red cards for using the E-stop. That's absolute nonsense. No one should ever have to stop and think if it's a good idea to hit a button that is partly intended for emergencies. There may be occasional strategic advantages to an E-Stop, but I don't see the penalty in allowing them to exist...

Absolutely.

Originally Posted by DampRobot

I'd also like alliance partners to be able to disable another robot to get the ball declared debris.

Absolutely not.

[DjScribbles]

It seems to me that further penalizing a team with a stuck ball isn't really necessary (via forcing an E-Stop, foul points, etc).

If placing a new ball into play resets all assist points on a cycle, then that reset can be an effective penalty against the team. If the ball returns to play it must be cleared from the field, just as a left over autonomous ball would be, before a new cycle can resume.

Extra balls on the field are not a benefit in this game, as they only serve to disrupt an alliances rhythm, and present an obstacle to high-value objectives; if a ball gets stuck, reset the cycle, put a new one in play, and get on with the game.

Just my 0.02$

[notmattlythgoe]

Originally Posted by DjScribbles

It seems to me that further penalizing a team with a stuck ball isn't really necessary (via forcing an E-Stop, foul points, etc).

If placing a new ball into play resets all assist points on a cycle, then that reset can be an effective penalty against the team. If the ball returns to play it must be cleared from the field, just as a left over autonomous ball would be, before a new cycle can resume.

Extra balls on the field are not a benefit in this game, as they only serve to disrupt an alliances rhythm, and present an obstacle to high-value objectives; if a ball gets stuck, reset the cycle, put a new one in play, and get on with the game.

Just my 0.02$

This is my take on it too.

[Gregor]

Originally Posted by DjScribbles

It seems to me that further penalizing a team with a stuck ball isn't really necessary (via forcing an E-Stop, foul points, etc).

If placing a new ball into play resets all assist points on a cycle, then that reset can be an effective penalty against the team. If the ball returns to play it must be cleared from the field, just as a left over autonomous ball would be, before a new cycle can resume.

Extra balls on the field are not a benefit in this game, as they only serve to disrupt an alliances rhythm, and present an obstacle to high-value objectives; if a ball gets stuck, reset the cycle, put a new one in play, and get on with the game.

Just my 0.02$

Then you can have 3 teams running independant cycles on the same alliance, which could be advantagous in some cases, even giving up everything but goal points.