Aerial Assist and Ill Will

[Ian Curtis]

I am excited to see Aerial Assist played on the field this year. It's very cool that the GDC chose a new gameplay mechanic to try out.

At the same time, I am worried that only 1 ball per alliance has the real potential to breed ill will. FRC teams for the most part do not build robots that are good at scoring points. (2011 OPR distribution) Having watched many FRC matches, if I had a penny for every second I've seen a robot try to acquire a game piece and come up empty, I would be a rich man. Let's say you're on an alliance with two BLTs and one perennial powerhouse. If the BLTs can't POSSESS the ball well, chances are giving your powerhouse exclusive access to the ball will score the most points. But if the BLTs have mechanisms they want to try/show off, this game plan is obviously not going to fly with them. An additional factor is the damage done if a ball gets stuck in a faulty mechanism.

There are always some threads every year where people complain about coaching. Given that there is only one ball per alliance in teleop and scoring points actually requires coordination, the personalities and persuasive skills of the drive team will be critical. I can only imagine that these threads will be more frequent and more heated.

On top of this, there is a non-negligible portion of people involved with FRC that already hold ill will against high performing robots and their for a variety of reasons. This opinion is not held by many people active on CD, but you don't have to look far at an event to find people that feel this way. Might this get worse if they perceive a team as being ballhogs?

The GDC's solution was to make ASSISTS the secondary sort, which alleviates some of this problem. Is it enough? Am I worried about nothing?

[Gregor]

Originally Posted by Ian Curtis

The GDC's solution was to make ASSISTS the secondary sort, which alleviates some of this problem. Is it enough? Am I worried about nothing?

Assists are the secondary sort (after WLT), which makes them the first tiebreaker. That makes them extremely important.

I'm also worried about animosity this game is going to create between teams.

[Michael Corsetto]

Was waiting for someone to start this thread.

I am worried as well. We plan on using our scouting database to back up our proposed strategies during qualification matches, but it doesn't negate the fact that we will be asking other teams to sacrifice things like shooting into the 10 point goal and throwing over the truss in order to allow us to.

We plan to do most of the "heavy lifting" to accomplish our in-match objectives. In fact, we would prefer a box-on-wheels robot that plays into our strategy than a mediocre team that takes 5 seconds to pick up the ball and pass it to us. When you're thinking about things like that day 1, it doesn't look good...

As a coach of a moderately successful team, I think the burden of responsibility will fall on me and my students/mentors to reach out more than ever, both before and at events. I hope that goodwill extended off the field will be returned on the field.

One can dream, right?

-Mike

[BrendanB]

Ian I too share your feelings.

I think we all can see how the game will be played at the highest level but the reality is that at the lowest level the game will be extremely boring to watch and if you have one good robot on an alliance with two robots who can do very little issues will come up.

I'm really stuck as to how a/our team would carry out a match on both sides of the spectrum. All of our teams have the potential to be a high caliber scoring robot but looking over past years of FRC it is easy to see that most teams that compete will not perform to such a high level.

For me I don't want to go into a match steam rolling my partners (if we have a great robot) and I don't want to be the one getting steam rolled (if we have a not so great robot). Then again I know we have a match to win and its not right for an a good team (either us or a better robot on our alliance) to get screwed because we have to share the one ball we get with our partners. I'm not looking forward to any scenarios where "ball fights" occur.

This will be one of those games where at really good events the eliminations will be exciting to watch but at early/bad events I'm going to have to say it will be a miss for FIRST.

Its one of those "pie in the sky" games. It would be great if Aerial Assist is played at that level but the reality is it won't.

[DampRobot]

Thank you. I definitely perceive this as a problem in this game. Teams tend to be irrational about showing off their capabilities, and the strategic reality of not letting some teams get at the ball cannot be denied. There will be a lot of hurt feelings in this game, when teams will be asked to play a secondary role (defense, simple ball possession) in lieu of trying out their sub-par mechanisms.

[pfreivald]

Do keep in mind that a robot that can do nothing but drive can still assist and score. Three boxes on wheels can score 31 points per cycle; two boxes and one robot that can throw but not accurately enough to score can score 41 points per cycle.

[DampRobot]

Originally Posted by pfreivald

Do keep in mind that a robot that can do nothing but drive can still assist and score. Three boxes on wheels can score 31 points per cycle; two boxes and one robot that can throw but not accurately enough to score can score 41 points per cycle.

Most teams won't build that robot though. Most will try to build a mechanism for intaking and shooting balls. Unfortunately, most of these won't work (if if they work, not well), and these teams still will want to try out their mechanisms in the match.

If the teams that should build a box on wheels all build a box on wheels, this wouldn't be an issue.

[cmrnpizzo14]

The key for teams will be to make sure things do not get personal. Yes, this is hard. Have scouting data with you when you are making your pre-match strategy.

Our team started doing this after 2012 when we were at championships and we were negotiating with another team on our alliance about the coop bridge. We wanted to balance but so did they and they had their scouting data to show that they were better at it. We let them balance it and they got it done no problem.

Sure, your first match or two will be very tough especially in the early weeks. If you can show the numbers though I think most teams will be reasonable enough to recognize that they have a role to play to help the alliance.

[pfreivald]

Originally Posted by DampRobot

Most teams won't build that robot though. Most will try to build a mechanism for intaking and shooting balls. Unfortunately, most of these won't work (if if they work, not well), and these teams still will want to try out their mechanisms in the match.

If the teams that should build a box on wheels all build a box on wheels, this wouldn't be an issue.

Well, sort of. If teams build a solid drivetrain and then fail at the upper mechanical work, they should have a box on wheels to fall back on. (We've been in that boat several times in the past ten years; do not plan on being in that shape this year!)

[Whippet]

Originally Posted by DampRobot

If the teams that should build a box on wheels all build a box on wheels, this wouldn't be an issue.

I don't really like this statement, but it is really true in a sad way. Although really no team thinks they "should" build a box on wheels, many lack the resources to build anything else that is effective. Coming from one of those teams, it really hurts to know that whatever we build may not be allowed to compete simply because we would be better off using our robot as a rolling brick. However, that is the reality of the game, a game in which it is too risky to let the less privileged teams hold the ball.

[dodar]

Honestly, most teams that have been around through a few years and have drive coaches and/or mentors who have been through a few seasons will be able to see past the need to constantly show off what their robot can do and see the bigger picture. I do forsee some matches at each regional and champs to have a little bit of heat between teams, but I think most will rather win the match and forgo completely showing off their capabilities if it means a higher W/L ratio.(And a higher ranking) Most teams will know "how to play the game" in qualifications.

[pfreivald]

Originally Posted by Whippet

I don't really like this statement, but it is really true in a sad way. Although really no team thinks they "should" build a box on wheels, many lack the resources to build anything else that is effective. Coming from one of those teams, it really hurts to know that whatever we build may not be allowed to compete simply because we would be better off using our robot as a rolling brick. However, that is the reality of the game, a game in which it is too risky to let the less privileged teams hold the ball.

Make sure your drivetrain is nails and that your drivers know how to drive it. Defense will be big this year; and like I said, even boxes on wheels can help an alliance gain mucho points just by being able to push a ball in a direction--and they can score it in the lower goal.

That way, if your upper mechanical systems are all utter, catastrophic failures, you can still be a solid addition to an alliance.

(This advice goes for every year of FIRST I've ever seen, by the way. Drivetrain first; then everything else.)

[Chi Meson]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't a robot "possess" a ball by simply herding it? The simplest robot has the potential to add 10-points to each scoring cycle just by bumping a ball from zone 1 to zone 2. A good team should know how to make the best of the situation if they are allied with 1 or even 2, um... let's say "learning teams."

As we go through the quals, there will be occasions of 3 weak teams on an alliance, it always happens, and we were once one of those weak teams, and I'll tell ya: we expected to be thrashed by the powerhouses, and it made us want to be like them.

Back then we were most impressed by those teams that took it is stride that our team was actually a liability to their alliance at a time when they were battling for top 8 placement. The best teams came to us and shared their knowledge of the game, they saw how our hack-bot could work best with them, and we did what we could to follow their strategy.

Ill will can and should be avoided by both the strong, weak and mediocre teams. I don't see why this year would cause any more than others.

[Bill_B]

We've pretty well recognized that what are called assists are actually possessions and unlike the usual sports understanding of an assist. That means the assisting in Aerial Assist should be taking place off the field. Starting NOW. Check your tournament rosters. Which teams would you guess to be in position to pick alliances? Contact those teams (NOW) and ask them what sort of robot will they be looking for. Build that robot. Ask for help if you think you need it.

I'm already tired of hearing how "top tier" teams will be starved for alliance partners due to some perception of lesser competence among the general FRC team population. If you have any aspiration to be a top tier team this year, you must consider what sort of talent will be available to help you get there THIS YEAR. Get busy making sure it will be around. There is not a lot of time left.

You do know how to find out which teams will be at your tournament(s), don't you?

[MikeE]

Thank you for raising this topic Ian.
(And also thank you for the twentyfour blog - we started one of our strategy discussions this year with the question "What would Plowie do?". This is going to be Plowie's year!)

Originally Posted by Ian Curtis

Having watched many FRC matches, if I had a penny for every second I've seen a robot try to acquire a game piece and come up empty, I would be a rich man.

This is a game of possession and ball control followed by defense, so it's a bit disappointing yet unsurprising to see it apparently* perceived as a game of sitting unmolested in your scoring zone lobbing exercise balls 8 feet into the air.

Accusations of "ballhogging" is a legitimate concern. But the problems may start even earlier when teams go to pre-load balls into robots which didn't move in their previous match. Unfortunately I expect some animated exchanges in the queuing line this year.

* Statement based on subjective observation of CD activity