Who built your robot?

[Matchew]

My team is a very new team to first we have 7 member and one engineer. I know that some teams a lot of people have to travel to get there but that really isn't a valid excuse. I that the Delphi teams may know how everything works on their robot but there is a certain level of hard work and dedication that goes in to the robot and if you don't know how to build it or you don't build it you don't realize this to the fullest. I out over one hindered 200 hours in the shop milling and welding and most everyone on our team knows how you weld make mechanical drawings use the mill and other metal working tools. When I hear about these teams that "work with" the engineers i would like to invite them to one our team meetings and find out just how much they know.

[George]

Mr John Bono, Team 990
I am disappointed that the Vegas teams did not take up the
Offer of help I made in Dec,02 maybe you should talk to Eli Reilly
I feel Gracious Professionalism is lacking in your posts.
If you do not want help that is offered, DON'T COMPLAIN!
Please look me up in Phoenix or LA
Geo.

[Chris I]

Originally posted by dlavery
To quote Abraham Lincoln: "Better to remain silent and thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."

You don't know what you are talking about. Your remarks are insulting, ignorant, inappropriate, and flat out wrong. Before you speak up again, please take the trouble to actually become educated and informed.

-dave

------------------------------

Y + AX^2 + B.... ehhh, whatever

Mr. Lavery: Thank you for your support.

yangotang: After reading your post, our engineer Steve was surprised to hear he was supposed to be paid all this time and that ALL NASA-Ames engineers were working with our team. Now he's upset because he's never seen these "other" engineers--they never show up. He is also wondering when he'll receive his first paycheck in the mail.

Our team is having a Pre-Shipping Practice session and scrimmage this Sunday, February 16th. Your team, as well as every team in Northern California, is invited to attend and right now, it looks like 12-14 teams are participating. We hope that opening up our facility helps everybody to have a better season.

BTW, a month ago we e-mailed every team in Northern California that our facility has been open for use. For the past 3 weeks, we have had numerous teams at our lab two days a week. We hope it has been helpful to those teams, and please know that your team is always welcome to use our facility.

If you are able to make it, our engineer requests you to bring his back paychecks AND the NASA engineers that you know of that were supposed to be working with us. We would greatly appreciate their support. =)

If you would like to know anything about our team, please feel free to come up some time. We would be happy to give you a tour.

[yangotang]

i'm sorry if i offended anyone in the posts before. i was just frustrated at the fact that our partnership with nasa is almost nonexistent.

If we could have some true engineers, i'd be very happy. Currently, i'm just angry that i can't get this darn programming thing working. I hope i will never offend you guys again.

[John Bono]

1) Try making an offer to someone who has sway, not the kid who got banished from the pit area to the scouting for his annoyingness. And I have no problem with someone living in a machine shop--that just allows for nifty stuff to be made more easily. We don't really need any machine shop work this year (although it would've been slightly useful a couple weeks ago), and there's really no one with time to deal with a machine shop. We have 1 advisor and 1 other mentor. We have about seven whole members on our team, and otherwise, I really don't know why we're not getting any help from a machine shop. I'll have to ask the boss about that. True, I by no means normally show gracious proffessionalism, especially when confronted with an opposing philosophy to my own. I think it inflates a child's ego when you make a really nice, expensive toy, then tell them to go play with it. There are many students out there that would be very happy to do EVERYTHING on a robot at any High School I could imagine--it might just take a little longer for them to learn how at some vs. others. Anyway--with the kid metaphor: how many people have you seen become a better person by being told how their new expensive toy works? This is not a mecha anime--you don't have to give the super expensive robot to some random kid who thinks it's cool.
It just eats me up inside to walk around the pits, watching more adults work than students. While the mentors go through the motions that they've been through a dozen times, the kids sit on the sidelines and play a game of Magic (not that I dislike Magic: the Gathering--I just think there's something more pressing going on at the time). I'm going to wager that someone learns a lot more holding the drill than watching someone else wield it. We (the students) aren't supposed to learn what designing a robot is, they're supposed to learn how to design it themselves, not sit on the sidelines and be "inspired."

...Ah, I love arguing...

[George]

Sorry John, That was the Only contact your web site gave!
AS for "No time" the time you took to wright this last post was
more then long enough you only get what you put in,
this includes annoying kids (there are no "bad" privates)
Geo.

[John Bono]

Ah, but you see, I am a lowly student who was weary from a day of getting aluminum shavings stuck in every orifice of clothing and body--again, I have no sway, and um... make what you just said more coherent. Really, aren't you a teacher? What kind of example are you setting?

[MisterX]

Actually our robot has yet to be built except for the chasis. This year the teacher came up with the brilliant idea of putting the freshmen in charge of building and designing so they could learn more. Wait a minute, shouldn't people already know more then just how to change their underwear (even thought I doubt most of them even do know how) before they take on the construction of a robot? Oh well, just don't be surprised if when you are walking around the pits and see a half built robot.

P.S. hope we arn't ur aliance partner!

[srjjs]

Sorry about my teammate's behavior. Most of our team is not that way. Yangotang is just prone to outbursts of anger at times.

He is right about our robot being student built though. I think the most any adult has done is cut about 1cm off some bolts that were too long.

[George]

Originally posted by John Bono
Ah, but you see, I am a lowly student who was weary from a day of getting aluminum shavings stuck in every orifice of clothing and body--again, I have no sway, and um... make what you just said more coherent. Really, aren't you a teacher? What kind of example are you setting?

John, Sorry if you mistook my "annoying" remark wrong,
(See your post "1)" )
And no I am a teacher, as for being coherent, Sorry, I reply
as I have time,
Remember I work 10-12 Hr a day,
Then put in 4-6 Hr for the team 5 days a week sat & sun
(if I don't have to work Too!) is 16-18 HR........For 6 weeks!
I have been eating Alum. & Steel for 35 YR day in/day out.
If i did't feel you were worth it I would't use my breaks to
reply,
Are you going to Phoenix? LA?
I would like to meet you, buy ya Lunch?
Geo.

[Ken Leung]

John,

Can anyone honestly say they know 100% about teams other than their own? I don't believe so. So before you know take up the courage and talk to the teams, you should not make such a quick judgment about them and how much their students learn. Until then, don't just go to the computer, come into this forum and post whatever you choose to believe about those teams.

In a lot of area, they are lucky to have a FIRST team. There are many reasons that could explain that... Can you honestly say the students aren't inspired as much as you and your team did?

Teams have different policy on how much their student learn because of many different reasons. Can you honestly say EVERY team should have the students do 100% of the work on the robot? Comparing a team with 100% student and no robot at the competition, and a team with engineers building the robot with the students, I would say the latter team's student got more out of the experience than the other one.

And how do you know the students weren’t involved in designing the robot, and constructing the parts in the machine shop along with the engineer/mentor? There are many many ways for a person to get inspired about science and engineering... Working in the pit is just one of them. One other really popular method is to go around the pit area, and actually MEET other teams and TALK to them, and share the experience, and build up a network with others in the program and learn from them. Have you given that a try?

Dean say that FIRST isn't about education... I don't exactly agree with that statement, but at the same time I believe that inspiration and exposure are the more important aspect in FIRST. You can learn many things by doing FIRST, but the more important result is that it inspire you to stay on the path of science and technology. When compare to years of experience of working with companies and even the 8 years total of undergrad and grad school, FIRST is only the first step that open the eyes of students and reveal them the path they will take.

You don't have to acknowledge the effort and energy those engineers and mentor put into the team... Just don't reject and undermine them, and out rightly say it's wrong.

And besides, why do you have only 1 advisor and 1 mentor on your team? What happen to the 10 month in the year for you to raise fund, and find more support? It is the team's responsibility to keep their program sustainable, as well as improve every year.

I really hope you make use of your time at competition and learn something from it.

And to yangotang, I repeat the same thing about not having enough engineers and mentors on the team. I happen to know three of the adults on Aragon Robotics, and they are some of the best people I've ever seen, and are involved in a lot more than just building a robot for 6 weeks. I hope you appeciate the fact that they are on your team helping instead of "being paid to work with bellarmine"

[George]

[size=3]WELL SAID!

[A. Snodgrass]

Ken and Dave, very well said!

I would just like to say a couple of things:
1)Isnt the point of FIRST to inspire and encourage students to look into and explore engineering?
Without exposing students to engineering what is to encourage them to go into it. However it is done is inmaterial behind the point that if students are at least exposed to the field and what it entails they are much more likely to go into it.
My old teams first year we got off to a late start, and only those students who REALLY thought it would be fun joined me. The engineers and the students worked side by side in order to finish on time. One of those students had been the biggest slacker in the school. He saw no point to his classes and even though he was very bright, he didnt see why he should pay attention and study. After FIRST, not only did he finally see a point to his classes but he finally figured out what he really wanted to do with his life. He is in college now studying Mechanical Engineering.
2) Just something to think about. if you make an argument and dont show respect a) for yourself and b) for the other side of the argument, how do you ever expect to convince somebody that your side of the argument is right. You could have the best point in the world, but if you deliver it in such at way that people are offended or are put off by your words, then that point is lost, because nobody listens. My feeling about gracious professionalism is akin to sportsmanship and a few other things. If you start practicing gracious professionalism early, then you become more effective when you start in the workplace. You are more likely to be able to affect change. We all have times when we have somebody disagree with our beliefs. Its how we react which determines if we can affect change on that person. Sometimes we can help somebody who believes the other side to get a new perspective on the issue and vice versa. And from that both people grow.

[George]

One of the BEST parts of first is meeting new people and
watching them grow.
Well Said, Again!

[Mark Hamilton]

We work togethor with our engineers to build our bot. Admittedly a lot of the base components are made/welded by professional machinist. This is done more for practical reasons then anything else, our access to Motorola's machine shops is limited because they are so busy (especially with recent layoffs). The engineers do try their hardest to involves students, and they involve us a lot in the design process. When it comes to assembly, ussually students and engineers work side by side. It'd be cool to build a robot all by ourselves, but we'd miss out on so much more if we did that. I'd rather have a chance to work with real engineers and learn about engineering, not machining. this is my fourth year in robotics, and im confident I could put togethor a halfway decent robot without the engineers help, but I wouldn't learn anything of real value in the process. I personally had a big impact on the design of this year's robot, but my idea had some major flaws. An engineer took what I came up with and showed us how to make it work. I'm certain I could take this years robot apart, and put it back togethor again, and explain to you why and how everything in it works. So I guess our approach is working.