Thoughts on Ri3D and BuildBlitz

[KeeganP]

Before you read this, please know that my opinion might not be shared among the majority of ChiefDelphi users, and I accept that. I just think I should share my opinion and thoughts, and hopefully help to improve FRC.

First, I do want to say that I truly appreciate how much effort and time went in to Ri3D and BuildBlitz this year. The participants were an incredible example of what is possible to do, and I thank them for their time. The robots they designed were and are incredible. That said...

The Problem

I feel like although Ri3D and BuildBlitz are incredibly inspirational as to what a team could theoretically accomplish in just 72 hours, they are helping teams a little too much.

When they release videos of how ever part on their robot works, CAD drawings down to the last nut bolt and rivet and number of links they used in their chain, they kill the ingenuity and originality of many frc teams. Why reinvent the wheel when you have 6 fully-functional rule-abiding choices complete with parts lists and design videos that you can copy?

I agree that many teams are not going to directly copy a robot from these 6 teams, however I personally know 3-4 that have chosen to. I know our team is borrowing ideas from many of the robots, and that the moment the reveal videos, CAD drawings and other marketing materials came out, the ingenuity and originality on our team went down, and it was disappointing to me.

Some of us wanted to directly copy parts of their robots and others of us wanted to steer as far away from any of the designs as possible, just because we felt copying their designs wasn't right.

What I Suggest

Have the Ri3D and BuildBlitz teams continue to inspire teams. But don't release CAD drawings and parts lists and complete specs -- leave something to the imagination until after build season is over, or at least after it's ⅔ done.

Only release a reveal video after the 72 hours, and make it be just the robot driving/shooting/climbing/miniboting/swimming, with no human narrating it's abilities. Again, I think this would cause the teams to be inspired by what is possible, without making them decide to build a copy of one of their robots.


Again, I know this probably isn't a popular opinion, but I feel I needed to share it. Have any other teams felt this way at all? Did Ri3D or BuildBlitz curb your ingenuity or originality of design?

[Starke]

Originally Posted by KeeganP

Before you read this, please know that my opinion might not be shared among the majority of ChiefDelphi users, and I accept that. I just think I should share my opinion and thoughts, and hopefully help to improve FRC.

I think that it is great to have these conversations. There have been a lot of discussions on CD about these 3 day builds. Here is one thread of a few.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=123152

Matt

[Jay O'Donnell]

I agree with the thoughts you shared here. While my team isn't really using anything from Ri3D or Build Blitz, I know that many teams will. Just look at last year. With only one robot in 3 days, there were many teams who were carbon copies of that design, and many who followed their suggestions. Not that this is entirely a bad thing, because some teams do need some inspiration right off the bat in build season. I liked having 5 (almost 6) different robots this year because teams could be inspired by many different robots. What you stated about CAD drawings and parts lists is exactly correct, because teams shouldn't need these unless they plan on building the same robots. So in conclusion I completely agree with you. Robot in 3 days is inspirational and helpful, but giving teams ways to just copy a robot design is not.

[cadandcookies]

I stand by my original opinion on this.

If you don't like Ri3D or Buildblitz, your team and your team alone has the right to decide not to pay attention to BuildBlitz/Ri3D and all resulting designs and CAD models and videos.

Just because there's a bunch of violence on television does not mean that I have to watch it. Similarly, if a team decides that it is preferable to design in a vacuum, that is their right.

Personally, I don't see where the obsession with creating unique designs comes from. FIRST robots have always been a combination (in various degrees) of previously existing technologies and game mechanisms. Build Blitz/Ri3D just happen to be introducing more relevant mechanisms (none of which, by the way, are really anything new-- winches and catapults have a had a large deal of previous use in FRC). The only mechanism that I saw that I don't think is relatively common knowledge (other than Boom Done's awesome use of sensors) was the choo-choo mechanism of Team JVN. Roller intakes are classic, catapults were used in 2008 and a little bit in 2012, winches have been used in 2008, 2010, 2013, at least, and motor-powered flingers (like Boom Done), while not exactly common, are really just an extension of a classic arm/lever design.

Individual mechanisms very rarely in themselves grant teams advantages. It's integrating, effectively implementing, and quickly building mechanisms that is the real difference.

Borrowing designs is not a bad thing. There are no patents in FIRST robot design (at least by teams).

[magnets]

I agree with a previous poster that the three day robots have the right to do what they're doing. However, I'm still unsure if I like the Ri3D teams or not

PROS-
We end up with competitive teams that are fun to watch
Week 1 regionals in 2012 were pretty darn awful to watch because teams were so bad
Experienced teams who know that certain things will work really well don't have a massive advantage any more.

CONS-
There are tons of clones of robots out there.
A moderately competitive team now doesn't stand out as much from a Ri3D copy.
(this could be seen as a pro for some teams)
Less fun to design and prototype your robot.

[magnets]

Originally Posted by cadandcookies

I stand by my original opinion on this.

Roller intakes are classic, catapults were used in 2008 and a little bit in 2012, winches have been used in 2008, 2010, 2013, at least, and motor-powered flingers (like Boom Done), while not exactly common, are really just an extension of a classic arm/lever design.

It's still really different.
I agree that roller intakes aren't anything revolutionary, and in the past, I could look at years of roller intake pictures on CD, but now, I can get the exact angle, position, speed, location, width, gearing, motor, and bearing setup that works. I guarantee that if you asked 1114 if they spent a while to get their roller intake in 2008 to work the way they wanted to, they would tell you they tried different wheels, widths, speeds, motors, torques, angles... Now, I can just grab my CAD file from the internet, buy a versa frame kit, and suddenly I have a competitive intake.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by magnets

It's still really different.
I agree that roller intakes aren't anything revolutionary, and in the past, I could look at years of roller intake pictures on CD, but now, I can get the exact angle, position, speed, location, width, gearing, motor, and bearing setup that works. I guarantee that if you asked 1114 if they spent a while to get their roller intake in 2008 to work the way they wanted to, they would tell you they tried different wheels, widths, speeds, motors, torques, angles... Now, I can just grab my CAD file from the internet, buy a versa frame kit, and suddenly I have a competitive intake.

Arguably if everyone does this, it's no longer a competitive intake.

Raising the bar and all.

[magnets]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

Arguably if everyone does this, it's no longer a competitive intake.

Raising the bar and all.

True, but there will be a good portion of teams who will compete with an intake that is inferior to the Ri3D intake. IMO, with the new defense rule, your intake will be the most important part of the robot.

[dradel]

I actually got into an argument with my son about this sort of thing. I became a mentor to help these kids who little to no mechanical experience learn how to put stuff together. One of the things I personally try to get across is this program is suppose to be about thinking outside the box and using some imagination. We all want to make it to Einstein and win, but to me it is more about the learning experience, and learning how to things work and move rather than having an uber competitive bot.
Just my two cents.

[mikemat]

I understand some people's fear of a loss of originality because of the 3 day robots. But I wouldn't say 2013 had any less original designs than before. Sure the 'Ri3D robot' was popular, but in 2012 the 'polycord elevator to hooded single wheel shooter' was just as common. As was the '4-bar with roller claw' in 2011.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by dradel

I actually got into an argument with my son about this sort of thing. I became a mentor to help these kids who little to no mechanical experience learn how to put stuff together. One of the things I personally try to get across is this program is suppose to be about thinking outside the box and using some imagination. We all want to make it to Einstein and win, but to me it is more about the learning experience, and learning how to things work and move rather than having an uber competitive bot.
Just my two cents.

To overuse the word arguably...

Arguably one of the most important lessons we can teach our students is how to win.

Setting goals, working against seemingly impossible odds, not giving up after failure, working harder, working smarter, etc...

[dradel]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

To overuse the word arguably...

Arguably one of the most important lessons we can teach our students is how to win.

Setting goals, working against seemingly impossible odds, not giving up after failure, working harder, working smarter, etc...

Isn't it more important to teach them how to think!!?? Winning is nice, but it shouldn't be the end all be all. Putting forth true effort, and learning something is way more important than bragging rights.

[waialua359]

Originally Posted by dradel

Isn't it more important to teach them how to think!!?? Winning is nice, but it shouldn't be the end all be all. Putting forth true effort, and learning something is way more important than bragging rights.

FIRST is a competition.....not just about winning a trophy, but winning sponsorship, support from school, and the other non-robot awards associated with a competition.
Every journey is unique and teams have the right to choose which route they want to take.

Personally, I think Ri3D and Build Blitz was one of the best things that have happened in recent years.
Not only do they help teams come up with ideas, they show how teams can utilize their respective products they market and sell.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by dradel

Isn't it more important to teach them how to think!!?? Winning is nice, but it shouldn't be the end all be all. Putting forth true effort, and learning something is way more important than bragging rights.

To achieve what I said against the caliber of competition out there is impossible without thinking. A lot. I said "working smart" after all.

I'll also say that our team doesn't compete for bragging rights. We enjoy winning when it happens (as everyone should), but what we really take pleasure in at the end of everything is the transformation in each and every member of the group. Even kids that are barely involved and don't contribute much (shy, first year, not outgoing, whatever reason) get instilled with an unshakable sense of quality and hard work that often springboards them into much success in their coming seasons with us, and in the rest of their lives.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by dradel

Isn't it more important to teach them how to think!!?? Winning is nice, but it shouldn't be the end all be all. Putting forth true effort, and learning something is way more important than bragging rights.

What is FIRST's mission?

Inspiration.

To me, the Ri3D type of robots are a good thing and maybe not so good of a thing. They're a good thing because they raise the floor, allowing teams to see a successful design or six in action, then copy it (and if you just copy it, you're missing out--the subtle improvements are where it's at, folks!). They allow more teams to actually be competitive at regionals, never a bad thing--anybody else remember the older days, when if you got one BLT on your alliance, your only hope was that they could play some really good defense?

That said, the not-so-good part is that some teams will just copy the designs. Anybody who's seen me answer "obvious" rules and/or design questions knows that I'm not going to give a straight answer right away, I'm going to go the long way around (often involving math) and try to teach something along the way. I'm a big fan of not giving the answer, and a big fan of teaching how to think--and NOT a big fan of having everybody just say "Do my homework for me."

So, I opt to be somewhat neutral, because of what I just outlined. I can see both sides as having valid points.