To Shoot or Not to Shoot

[piersklein]

I have noticed that almost all the teams on Chief Delphi seem to be shooting. Is this really necessary? I think a better alliance strategy would be to have one shooter camped in the offensive (red or blue) zone and two "assistive" passing to each other than the shooter. Am I being overly optimistic? Any thoughts?

[geomapguy]

Originally Posted by piersklein

I have noticed that almost all the teams on Chief Delphi seem to be shooting. Is this really necessary? I think a better alliance strategy would be to have one shooter camped in the offensive (red or blue) zone and two "assistive" passing to each other than the shooter. Am I being overly optimistic? Any thoughts?

you don't know what to expect in qualifications.....so make a bot that can perform on its own

[GUI]

Originally Posted by geomapguy

you don't know what to expect in qualifications.....so make a bot that can perform on its own

You can expect that teams that know what they're doing will spot your ability to reliably pass the ball, and find a place for a simple effective assister in their strategy. Qualifications are just that, and an alliance doesn't necessarily need three bots that can score in the high goal to win.

I think a lot of successful alliances will only have two shooters, and there will be a niche market for robots that can catch well and pass the ball off to their teammates quickly.

[geomapguy]

Originally Posted by GUI

You can expect that teams that know what they're doing will spot your ability to reliably pass the ball, and find a place for a simple effective assister in their strategy. Qualifications are just that, and an alliance doesn't necessarily need three bots that can score in the high goal to win.

I think a lot of successful alliances will only have two shooters, and there will be a niche market for robots that can catch well and pass the ball off to their teammates quickly.

yes but there WILL be matches with only one robot per alliance (happens every year)....it's a known fact....if you want to seed high, build a robot that can score in the high goal but can still assist if needed.

[Christopher149]

Do you want one of the three bots to also be the truss thrower?

Could only one bot shoot all three balls in autonomous? Would be a lot easier in the ten seconds if each bot could get a high goal score.

Why can't your shooter also assist?

[GUI]

Originally Posted by geomapguy

yes but there WILL be matches with only one robot per alliance (happens every year)....it's a known fact....if you want to seed high, build a robot that can score in the high goal but can still assist if needed.

You don't need to seed high to win a regional, you need to be on an alliance that is competitive. I think it's fair to say that a high seeded alliance with two great shooters doesn't need a third shooter as much as they need an excellent assister/defender.

[Steven Donow]

Originally Posted by geomapguy

yes but there WILL be matches with only one robot per alliance (happens every year)....it's a known fact....if you want to seed high, build a robot that can score in the high goal but can still assist if needed.

You're missing the point of the quoted post, if you're fulfilling a certain role in a match, teams will notice, even if you can't hold your own in the slightest if you're alone.

[XaulZan11]

Originally Posted by geomapguy

yes but there WILL be matches with only one robot per alliance (happens every year)....it's a known fact....if you want to seed high, build a robot that can score in the high goal but can still assist if needed.

I'm 99% sure you don't need a 10 point shooter to seed high (and I'm not talking about lucky schedules). I know it's a very different game, but in '08 148 seeded 1st and 2nd without hurdling one ball. I'd argue this game is better set up for non-scoring bots than that game.

Now, what gives you the best chance at seeding high depends on your individual team.

[dellagd]

Originally Posted by DevenStonow

You're missing the point of the quoted post, if you're fulfilling a certain role in a match, teams will notice, even if you can't hold your own in the slightest if you're alone.

I'd just like to throw in the accuracy of the FRC ranking system into this discussion. While smart teams will notice a niche robot, with the heavy reliance on partners for matches, I foresee the ranking system not being as... accurate (I say that lightly) as it has been in the past. You may have teams out there picking that didn't even scout (or scout effectively). Maybe I'm just too cautious, but something like that is just too risky, at least for us.

That being said, if you know your teams limits (a very hard thing to do), and you know an accurate-enough shooter is not in your capabilities, by all means make something that can catch and pass off a truss pass 100% of the time really quickly. Its great for this game.

I'd pick you.

Originally Posted by GUI

You don't need to seed high to win a regional, you need to be on an alliance that is competitive. I think it's fair to say that a high seeded alliance with two great shooters doesn't need a third shooter as much as they need an excellent assister/defender.

I completely agree. It's just not required by the game. Oh, and its time I made a call-out to Team 869. I've always liked your guy's defense bot style (disc-blowing fan last year), and I think this is the year for you

[Caleb Sykes]

I think that your design must meet your team's goals for competition. For most teams out there, their goal should be to make it into the elimination rounds. My team is one of those teams, and we went through a thought process like this:
How do we get into the elimination matches? Seed in the top 8 or get picked by another team.
Which is easier at the 60+ team 10K Lakes Regional? Be picked by another team.
How do we get picked by another team?
1: Be able to score assist points quickly and effortlessly.
2: Be able to pick up off of the ground.
3: Be able to score in the low goal quickly and effortlessly.
4: Be able to catch the ball quickly and effortlessly.

The elimination alliances will need at most 2 throwers (in teleop, not necessarily AUTO), and having 1 consistent thrower will not be uncommon. Therefore, The alliance captains will probably not weight throwing ability heavily when deciding on their second pick, but I guarantee that they will take notice of the good ball-handlers.


For teams that just want to make it into eliminations, throwing is absolutely not a requirement. However, many of the teams that post here are aiming for loftier goals than this. Those teams probably go through a thought process like this:
How do we have a solid chance to win a regional? We become part of one of the best 3 (or 2, or 1) alliances.
How do we become part of one of the top 3 alliances? We choose our own alliance with good scouting data to back it up.
How do we choose our own alliance? We seed high.
How do we seed high? Win a grand majority of matches and get extra ASSIST points if we are guaranteed victory.
How do we win a grand majority of matches? Build a robot that has a chance to win even if we are paired with immobile partners.
How do we build a robot that has a chance to win even with immobile partners? Score points any way that we can that do not involve teammates.
How do we score points that do not involve teammates? Throw the ball over the TRUSS and into the HIGH GOAL (although not in one throw ).

For these teams, it will be very hard to be "masters of their own fate" if they cannot throw the ball.

In the end, it comes down to your teams goals. Almost any team last year could have guaranteed themselves a spot in eliminations with a rock solid drive train and drivers, 10-point hang, and 1 point goal scoring if they had spent their whole season on these things. This year is no different.

My team decided on day 2 that we were not going to be shooting into the HIGH GOAL. On day 3 we decided that we were not going to be shooting over the TRUSS. So what are we going to do? We will be the best ball manipulating team at the regional, and guarantee ourselves a spot in eliminations as a result of this.

[efoote868]

Said this before, quoting so I don't have to repeat myself:

Originally Posted by efoote868

If your team can gather the ball and release it in a controlled manner faster than anyone else (with a moderately fast - fast drive train), I would expect your robot to be in the elimination bracket at any regional you attend. I wouldn't be surprised if your robot made it to Einstein either.

The highest rated teams at a regional won't be there by accident, and I expect them to be excellent in more ways than just building a robot. If you're worried about building a niche robot that won't get picked by a team that lacks scouting, then you're misunderstanding one of the primary reasons to build a niche robot.

If you're in FIRST to be competitive, you need to ask your team one question: Are we going to be able to choose our alliance this year, or do we have to get picked?
And if you're most teams, you'll ask yourselves a follow up question: How can we build a robot to get picked (What must our robot do to be desirable by other teams)?

[Jared Russell]

Which robot has a better chance of making eliminations?

The 9th best shooter in a Regional/Division, or the 9th best assister in a Regional/Division?

[EricH]

Originally Posted by inkling16

So what are we going to do? We will be the best ball manipulating team at the regional, and guarantee ourselves a spot in eliminations as a result of this.

I would say that that's a smart move, assuming that you can get some decent pairings in the quals. If you can score in the low goal with a lot of assists, you'll be pretty good at making your own road.

Originally Posted by Jared341

Which robot has a better chance of making eliminations?

The 9th best shooter in a Regional/Division, or the 9th best assister in a Regional/Division?

I would have to say that it depends on field depth in both classes. If 9th best is still a stellar shooter, I'd expect them to end up at about the 7th or 8th alliance captain, or picked. If they're a mediocre or poor shooter, then I'd expect them at the bottom end, if they were picked at all. OTOH, if the 9th best is a stellar assister, I'd put them as a late-first round, early-second round pick. Lousy assister, or worse, not a team player, lucky to get in on the late second round, or middle of third.


One thing that Torbots thought of was: shooters that don't shoot in any given match can still assist if their intake/outlet is good.

[Kernaghan]

I definately see your point in having a good passing robot. I believe at champs elimination alliances (correct me if I'm wrong) will consist of 2 shooters truss tossing attempting to catch then scoring and 1 second pick defensive - passer to get the full assist points. Speaking out of experience it is very hard to state that other teams will notice you, especially when you have a random schedule, what if no one else on your alliance can pass... how do you showcase your ability? However if it involves you building inside your means, I think it's the smartest thing you can do

[SoftwareBug2.0]

Originally Posted by dellagd

While smart teams will notice a niche robot, with the heavy reliance on partners for matches, I foresee the ranking system not being as... accurate (I say that lightly) as it has been in the past. You may have teams out there picking that didn't even scout (or scout effectively). Maybe I'm just too cautious, but something like that is just too risky, at least for us.

I wonder if it's a good strategy to build a robot that doesn't look like anything unless you're really paying attention. This might reduce the odds that you'll be chosen by a team with a lucky schedule. There are a couple assumptions that I'm making here: 1) on-field performance and scouting quality are correlated, and 2) your goal is to maximize your odds to win the event rather than your odds of being picked.