Non-sagging Bumpers Q&A Response

[BrendanB]

One method that I remember doing on 1519 one year was use string to hold the pool noodles to the plywood. After you staple on the fabric, pull out the string and voila! You get the non-sagging bumpers and you leave nothing past the plywood that is illegal.

[Rynocorn]

I am completely shocked... Our team has been using tape ever since bumpers bumpers became mandatory without ever thinkig about it. Also, 2 years ago, we had to tape apart our bumpers because they were 1/4 inch short (another unfortunate, long story) and the inspector watched us cut the tape off as we remade the bumpers. I'm just surprised that he didn't call us out on the tape after the barely too short bumpers.

[sanddrag]

What are they going to do to enforce this? Come cut open my bumpers? That'll be the day I quit.

We need a "Don't ask" culture for stuff like this an Q/A, just like when SlickDeals has this "Don't Call" culture for their hot deals forum postings. It seems like something that nobody ever thought twice about before is suddenly ruled illegal as soon as someone asks.

[AllenGregoryIV]

Originally Posted by Rynocorn

I am completely shocked... Our team has been using tape ever since bumpers bumpers became mandatory without ever thinkig about it. Also, 2 years ago, we had to tape apart our bumpers because they were 1/4 inch short (another unfortunate, long story) and the inspector watched us cut the tape off as we remade the bumpers. I'm just surprised that he didn't call us out on the tape after the barely too short bumpers.

As far as I know, no inspector has ever known this to be illegal or at least I have never spoken with any of them about it.

Originally Posted by sanddrag

What are they going to do to enforce this? Come cut open my bumpers? That'll be the day I quit.

There are plenty of rules that are unenforceable. It's enforced by the last line on the inspection sheet that requires a mentor and student to attest to compliance with all rules, including this one.

[mgurgol]

Would wood glue fall under the soft material of the question to the GDC? It isn't in the same category as tape or shrink wrap.

[Johnny]

Our team has always used a spray on adhesive to hold the pool noodles onto the wood so that we could pull our fabric tight. Haven't had an issue with them sagging.

[efoote868]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

What are they going to do to enforce this? Come cut open my bumpers? That'll be the day I quit.

I agree this is practically unenforceable, but I suspect FIRSTers will step up and make their grandmothers proud.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Guys,
WildStang has never used an adhesive or tape to secure the pool noodles prior to stapling the fabric. We fold over one edge and then staple it to the plywood. Then add the noodles, and pull the fabric tight around the plywood. We fold over the other edge and while pulling tight, we staple the second edge. It takes a little extra effort and usually two students working together, but it works as intended.

[JB987]

An interesting situation for those of us living in the dry desert. We stretch our cloth very tight for great looking bumpers then go to a regional or Champs where humid conditions produce saggy bumpers. Shall we now presoak them before fabrication and stretch tight, hoping we didn't over stretch. Seriously, what logical reason is there for disallowing 2 strips of tape on a bumper???

[Lil' Lavery]

I fail to see how this is a big deal. Neat looking bumpers can be accomplished without tape, as people have pointed out in this thread. Not to mention we're allowed to work on bumpers passed the bag date and even re-use them from year to year.

This is a non-issue.

[Nirvash]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

I fail to see how this is a big deal. Neat looking bumpers can be accomplished without tape, as people have pointed out in this thread. Not to mention we're allowed to work on bumpers passed the bag date and even re-use them from year to year.

This is a non-issue.

The issue I see is not that a bumper can be made without tape, it is that it pointlessly disallows something that teams have been using.

[Tristan Lall]

The rationale that they're not listed among the components permitted in bumpers is relatively persuasive, and I'm pretty sure this was specifically ruled illegal in at least a few past years. I suspect it may have been ruled legal at one point as well, but I'm not certain (nor am I going to search for it tonight).

As an inspector I've certainly explained to teams that the zip-ties, strips of tape or beads of adhesive underneath the fabric were not legal given the applicable rules and Q&A guidance. And like Al, I've had little trouble making adequately tight bumpers without resorting to internal fasteners of any kind.

I still think the bumper rules should be fundamentally based on simple tests of performance (with fidelity to a standard design meriting an automatic pass). By that rationale, if the taped bumper was clearly equivalent, there would be no problem. But since FIRST hasn't chosen this route, and given the simplicity of the solution (use removable string or an extra pair of hands while stapling), I don't have much sympathy for teams that are deliberately in violation. Inadvertent violators should probably read the rules more closely, but this would be low on the (long, but shorter than it used to be) list of bumper violations to enforce at inspection.

[Tristan Lall]

Originally Posted by Nate Laverdure

Goes to show: don't ask the question if you're unprepared for a disappointing answer.

Teams (collectively or individually) have vested interests in particular interpretations or particular ambiguities. The realization that a lack of an answer can sometimes be valuable means that some difficult questions don't get asked, for fear of a capricious or otherwise unfavourable answer.

The inability of disinterested parties (mainly the officials who have to enforce these rules) to get public clarifications is pretty big flaw in the Q&A, and has been since the days it transitioned from an e-mail system to a posting-based system (around 2002).

[martin417]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

Guys,
WildStang has never used an adhesive or tape to secure the pool noodles prior to stapling the fabric. We fold over one edge and then staple it to the plywood. Then add the noodles, and pull the fabric tight around the plywood. We fold over the other edge and while pulling tight, we staple the second edge. It takes a little extra effort and usually two students working together, but it works as intended.

I am about to really throw a wrench into things. If tape is not legal because it is not listed as an allowable material, then staples are also not legal. A careful reading of the bumper rules shows that if we take a strict interpretation of only allowing items listed in the rules, then we are limited to 3/4" plywood, pool noodles, sturdy cloth, aluminum angle, wood screws, and some unspecified attachment system.

So, who is going to ask Q&A about staples? Any takers?

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Martin,
I am going to go out on a limb and state that fasteners are expected for attaching the cloth to the backing material. Be they staples, tacks, etc. (or barbed wire fencing nails) as long as the other rules are followed, they will be acceptable. The aluminum angle is "optional" so it cannot be the only attachment that the GDC expects to see.
As to changes in humidity, I can only see that bumpers from a desert would swell with humidity making them more tight. The plywood, and to a very small extent, the Cordura fabric and the noodles, are all going to absorb some moisture. (Assuming you are not buying the Cordura Stretch Fabric)
All of this being said, everyone that knows me knows that sagging, ugly bumpers do not impress me. I am a TV engineer and it just doesn't look good for TV.
Dave, Inspectors will only ask to disassemble bumpers if they think there are illegal hard parts used int eh construction. And yes, we have seen steel and brass round bar stock and threaded rod inside the noodles, steel plate behind the noodles, and lead melted into holes in the plywood. If you can think of it, we have seen it.