In Case Paralyzing Snowstorm

[JamesCH95]

Originally Posted by MechEng83

I'm not sure why so many people are jumping on the OP for asking this question. I think he's trying to prepare for uncertainties. Think of this as an "Emergency Preparedness Kit" Do you have a first aid kit in your shop? (FYI, the answer should be "yes") Do you plan on having to use it? No -- you prepare in case you need to.

Sometimes, bad weather can come without sufficient notice (a la Geogia this past week). It's best to be prepared for these occasions and never have to use them rather than the reverse.

If we all just sat and were afraid that bad weather might come, or the road might be closed, or some other uncontrollable situation, we'd never get anything done.

You don't get it, it's not about taking no risks, it's about avoiding reasonable risks when it is easy and prudent to do so. It's about ensuring the risks are worth the rewards. Clearly they have enough warning to avoid a serious storm, then they clearly have enough time to cancel the meeting(s).

And yes, we all hope to never have to use our shop's first-aid kit. But being stranded in a school greatly raises the consequences of any accident, shifting the risk/reward analysis results.

Here is a hypothetical situation: an open fracture. Someone nicks their finger on a saw, to the bone. Not an uncommon shop accident. This type of injury requires IMMEDIATE antibiotic treatment. Typically a drive to the ER, a few stitches, and IV/pill antibiotics and you're good to go. Do you keep IV antibiotics and sutures in your first aid kit? On the other hand if you're stranded in a school for two days the bone could easily get infected because all you've got are some band-aids and alcohol swabs. They could be looking at surgery, long-term or life-time antibiotics, or having their finger/limb amputated to stop the infection from spreading.

Now, I realize that sounds a bit dramatic, and is unlikely to happen, but it illustrates the issue very nicely: being stranded raises the stakes for any mistake or accident significantly. This is, of course, on top of any transportation/travel hazards.

[Jon Stratis]

Personally, if the weather report made it look like being stranded at the school was a possibility, I'm pretty sure we would cancel the meeting that night. Even if it turns out the snow doesn't hit until later and we would have been fine, I think it's the right thing to do - safety FIRST! FWIW, we've already had 5 cold-weather cancellations this season...

Take a look at what needs to be done, and come up with stuff students can do outside of the shop. Work on PR, sponsor letters, award submissions... the robot can wait a day or two.

[JesseK]

While I'm generally in the 'it is a bad idea to encourage the team to risk their necks in the snow' camp, meeting at someone's house is no different than meeting at a school with respect to risk factors.

Verify with the school administration that the heat will be kept on during school closures. Our school district has a strict policy regarding energy conservation, which means if the school is closed then the heat is off without special permission.

[Woolly]

A DC to AC power inverter would be a heck of an idea in case of power failure.

[MechEng83]

Originally Posted by JamesCH95

You don't get it, it's not about taking no risks, it's about avoiding reasonable risks when it is easy and prudent to do so. It's about ensuring the risks are worth the rewards. Clearly they have enough warning to avoid a serious storm, then they clearly have enough time to cancel the meeting(s).

And yes, we all hope to never have to use our shop's first-aid kit. But being stranded in a school greatly raises the consequences of any accident, shifting the risk/reward analysis results.

Here is a hypothetical situation: an open fracture. Someone nicks their finger on a saw, to the bone. Not an uncommon shop accident. This type of injury requires IMMEDIATE antibiotic treatment. Typically a drive to the ER, a few stitches, and IV/pill antibiotics and you're good to go. Do you keep IV antibiotics and sutures in your first aid kit? On the other hand if you're stranded in a school for two days the bone could easily get infected because all you've got are some band-aids and alcohol swabs. They could be looking at surgery, long-term or life-time antibiotics, or having their finger/limb amputated to stop the infection from spreading.

Now, I realize that sounds a bit dramatic, and is unlikely to happen, but it illustrates the issue very nicely: being stranded raises the stakes for any mistake or accident significantly. This is, of course, on top of any transportation/travel hazards.

I "get it." I have made the call to cancel team meetings because it's unsafe to travel during the weekend, when the school doesn't dictate closures. I'm the one who is responsible for the kids' safety when they're in the shop. I "get it" and take great offense that you think I don't.

Your injury example is quite the hyperbole. Injuries are possible when slicing a bagel and making coffee at home, so I guess we should only eat luke-warm, soft foods during a snow storm... Certainly there's a risk-reward calculation. We all have different tolerances for risks. Building a robot is not worth credible life-threatening risks, and while I don't wish to speak directly for the OP, it doesn't seem like that is his intent.

I'll reiterate, the OP isn't planning on getting stuck. He's stated that multiple times. He's preparing for getting stuck as an unplanned occurance. I applaud the willingness to be prepared.

[JamesCH95]

Originally Posted by MechEng83

I "get it." I have made the call to cancel team meetings because it's unsafe to travel during the weekend, when the school doesn't dictate closures. I'm the one who is responsible for the kids' safety when they're in the shop. I "get it" and take great offense that you think I don't.

Your injury example is quite the hyperbole. Injuries are possible when slicing a bagel and making coffee at home, so I guess we should only eat luke-warm, soft foods during a snow storm... Certainly there's a risk-reward calculation. We all have different tolerances for risks. Building a robot is not worth credible life-threatening risks, and while I don't wish to speak directly for the OP, it doesn't seem like that is his intent.

I'll reiterate, the OP isn't planning on getting stuck. He's stated that multiple times. He's preparing for getting stuck as an unplanned occurance. I applaud the willingness to be prepared.

I meant that you didn't seem to understand the point I was trying to make, not that you don't understand team safety. I'm sorry if it seemed that way.

Do you understand how the risk of being stranded compounds the inherent risk of working in a shop? They know there is severe weather coming in. Why chance it at all? That is what I'm trying to get at.

If they are planning on carrying all that stuff around with them proactively, that's great, but it didn't sound that way from the OP. The hypothetical situation OP was addressing is 'if school is cancelled' (i.e. there is bad weather) and 'the district lets us work'. Why not cancel robotics when school is cancelled?

You are trivializing the nature of my example, using your own hyperbole. Using shop equipment is NOT equivalent to slicing a bagel. My example is an unlikely occurrence, but it is possible. I'm sure a number of teams can provide examples of similar injuries during build season: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=35877 and all that is required for my example to become fact is timing.

Again, I'm sorry if it seemed like I was insulting you, that was not my intent. I was trying to get you to appreciate that the consequences of not being able to seek professional medical attention can be devastating. I don't think any team should be using shop equipment when they know that getting to a hospital will be very difficult, if not impossible. We all take risks, but we can choose to be intelligent about how we mitigate those risks. I strongly believe that keeping everyone on a team at home under the threat of severe weather is something we should all do.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by JamesCH95

Why not cancel robotics when school is cancelled?

I've had plenty of cases where the roads were impassable in portions of the district but for the majority of people the roads were great. Or they were great by the afternoon. Situations change but once a school closes it can't very well reopen, FRC teams have a lil more flexibility.

[JamesCH95]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

I've had plenty of cases where the roads were impassable in portions of the district but for the majority of people the roads were great. Or they were great by the afternoon. Situations change but once a school closes it can't very well reopen, FRC teams have a lil more flexibility.

That sounds like a local anomaly... or at least different from my area. When school is cancelled, or even just after-school activities, the roads are usually ubiquitously un-passable (at least safely).

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by JamesCH95

That sounds like a local anomaly... or at least different from my area. When school is cancelled, or even just after-school activities, the roads are usually ubiquitously un-passable (at least safely).

Usually it's that situation wherein it was a "storm of the century" and all the schools closed the night before in which we got a light dusting. Or the roads were icy in the AM but once the salt trucks and the sun hit them they were fine.

[MechEng83]

Originally Posted by JamesCH95

I meant that you didn't seem to understand the point I was trying to make, not that you don't understand team safety. I'm sorry if it seemed that way.

Do you understand how the risk of being stranded compounds the inherent risk of working in a shop? They know there is severe weather coming in. Why chance it at all? That is what I'm trying to get at.

If they are planning on carrying all that stuff around with them proactively, that's great, but it didn't sound that way from the OP. The hypothetical situation OP was addressing is 'if school is cancelled' (i.e. there is bad weather) and 'the district lets us work'. Why not cancel robotics when school is cancelled?

You are trivializing the nature of my example, using your own hyperbole. Using shop equipment is NOT equivalent to slicing a bagel. My example is an unlikely occurrence, but it is possible. I'm sure a number of teams can provide examples of similar injuries during build season: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=35877 and all that is required for my example to become fact is timing.

Again, I'm sorry if it seemed like I was insulting you, that was not my intent. I was trying to get you to appreciate that the consequences of not being able to seek professional medical attention can be devastating. I don't think any team should be using shop equipment when they know that getting to a hospital will be very difficult, if not impossible. We all take risks, but we can choose to be intelligent about how we mitigate those risks. I strongly believe that keeping everyone on a team at home under the threat of severe weather is something we should all do.

Thank you for your clarification. The internet is not a place where tone and mood are easy to interpret. I, too, should apologize for my reaction . I'll blame the stress of build season. I am perhaps hypersensitive to the "missing days" dilema, as we've missed 8 so far this build season, and it's possible that we'll miss more in the next 2 weeks due to forecasted weather. The school district we are in has cancelled all extracurricular activities on certain days because of the cold, which in my opinion is bogus where we're concerned since we meet indoors and it wasn't unsafe to travel (no precipitation, roads clear). After all, they still had school...

Regardless, teams should stay safe. I agree, avoid unnecessary risks. If the words "Travel Warning" and "Snow Emergency" come into play, you shouldn't meet. Health/Safety >> Robots. Be Proactive. Don't be stupid.

[cglrcng]

Could the title of the original thread "In Case Paralyzing Snowstorm"

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have anything at all to do w/ some of the responses. 6" of snow in an area not used to & / or prepared for it can be cause for taking extra precautions.....Let the robot wait...It will be there when you return.

I am with the deodorant poster for sure. Top drawer of the largest tool box...on the right, big red container.....Quietly said...No young man, that is not a special lube for the bot...Go use it please (points to the boys restroom).

Please do not risk cheating "the medical golden hour" for any industrial accident possibilities (that could possibly arise), when you may know IN ADVANCE that roads may be impassible for possibly hours or days. Just in case. Think about the emergency personell also who risk life & limb to reach others out there who do not plan properly w/ advanced storm warning as they are busy enough during those times dealing w/ said unprepared non-thinking ahead FIRST like folks. (HotLanta last week, should teach us all something).
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I have been in the same type of situation before (My wife's a teacher mentor FRC/FTC/FLL. And her first year as an FLL Edu. coach/mentor of 2 teams were headed to Flagstaff, AZ a few years ago for the AZ FLL Reg.). She had both of their robots & kits w/ her, and we only live 1.5 hrs west of the competition location if driving 75 MPH (many of the students and parents were already at the competition location)....A realtime whiteout blizzard was happening and the roads were actually very nasty (but still open, w/ snow removal equipt. operating), when we arose that morning for the drive.

We tried driving anyway (mistake 1)...and only made it a mere 20 miles into the trip before enough was enough (and we pulled off into a well maintained truck stop, the last decent services stop for miles), and knew life and limb (mainly due to crazy flying 18 wheelers blinding us w/ slush waves), of not only us, but the other 4 vehicles of parents and children following behind us, was genuinely at stake....The return trip 20 miles back into town took us hours (and breakfast w/ lots of coffee & plenty boredom waiting for equipt. to clear the accidents and roads and deal w/ the ice buildup by then), after that point. (And, we soon found out that at least 20 accidents choked up the highway ahead, not far east from where we decided to pull up and off in that whiteout).

Long story shorter, the 2 teams were helped greatly and provided build kits by the gracious Hosts of the competition (thank you so much CocoNuts!). When we returned home. We quickly e-mailed their code/programs to them w/ help from our FRC programmer son, they both quickly built bots in the meantime and competed w/ short teams, and under the circumstances did very well indeed.

I really hated disappointing her (and those kids & parents), that morning, but saftey is job 1. When the AZ DPS Officer/Parent following directly behind me w/ his wife and kids in his personal van told me a short time later at the truck stop, that "he was pulling off that road with or without me", I felt much better about the decision. (He had heard from other DPS officer friends about the accidents and black ice ahead a few miles further).

Looking back now...I know that I should have never attempted the trip as it was also a pre-warned "paralyzing snowstorm."