[FRC Blog] Weather, Weather

[RyanB]

Originally Posted by loyal

No I think it was the wrong thing to do. Ask Canada about bad weather. In New England we get some extreme weather and we suck it up. Constraints and unforeseen problems are part of the learning exercise. So I repeat that this is bad form on behalf of FIRST.

Increasing withholding allowance is FIRST's standard response to teams losing build season days (so far). By sticking with a 6 week build season and increasing allowance, FIRST is providing the most equal playing field while still requiring teams to plan ahead for unforeseen circumstances.

[loyal]

Constraints and unforeseen problems are part of the learning exercise. That has always been the answer from FIRST in the past. Facts that can not be argued. I am not being confrontational just truthful.

[Justin Shelley]

We've missed 14 days of school this year in Missouri, all during six week build, which really sucks because that is more then a third of the build session! Missed weekends too that aren't included in the 14 days.

Greatly appreciate the increase to 45 lbs

[Conor Ryan]

I'm in Pittsburgh, some of the teams I have been working with have been up to 10 days missed so far.

I do feel like the price of the Anderson Power Poles just went up....

[notmattlythgoe]

Originally Posted by loyal

Constraints and unforeseen problems are part of the learning exercise. That has always been the answer from FIRST in the past. Facts that can not be argued. I am not being confrontational just truthful.

I would much prefer FIRST do something like this than send the message that not cancelling meetings and risking the dangerous weather is better than cancelling and missing the time.

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by loyal

Constraints and unforeseen problems are part of the learning exercise. That has always been the answer from FIRST in the past. Facts that can not be argued. I am not being confrontational just truthful.

Feel free to not use the Withholding Allowance then?

I'm not sure I see what the problem here is. Not all teams can prepare for these circumstances, and not all teams have the resources available to work around them. Calling everything a learning exercise is illogical because a team will learn to plan ahead for next season, but it is not helpful at the moment to tell them to "suck it up."

To the teams who are struggling to catch back up - feel free to reach out to other teams if you need help with fabrication, troubleshooting, or anything else. Better late than never.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by loyal

Constraints and unforeseen problems are part of the learning exercise. That has always been the answer from FIRST in the past. Facts that can not be argued. I am not being confrontational just truthful.

You're right if you look at FRC as a robotics competition. Here's a newsflash for you, it's not. It's a tool for inspiration that just happens to masquerade as an engineering competition. Now, let's look at the options here:

Option 1: You should have planned better/Deal with it

In an engineering competition this is the proper response. BUT, does it accomplish our inspiration goal? No, in fact it does the opposite. "We tried FIRST but it was too hard and we can't do it" or "It was unfair, we got steamrolled by these punks who didn't lose days to snow". Or, my favorite - "Oh we had a design for [mechanism] that was really cool but we didn't have time to adequately test it because we got a freak storm"

Option 2: Add withholding allowance

In an engineering competition this is fine, it doesn't damage anything and it actually encourages modularity. From the POV of inspiration? It's a life saver: "They are listening to our struggles". It also allows more butts in seats time with the mentors which is one of the biggest goals of FIRST.


If you want to argue facts, make sure you are right. FRC just so happens to use a robot as a tool. The end goal isn't building a robot, the end goal is building future engineers. There's plenty of time for the world to crap on their spirits and make them bitter engineers, let's try to not do that.

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

In an engineering competition this is fine, it doesn't damage anything and it actually encourages modularity.

And it may also encourage more teams to try and create multiple iterations of their designs.

[Brandon Holley]

Originally Posted by loyal

That has always been the answer from FIRST in the past.

Except you know, when it hasn't. Expansion of withholding allowance due to weather related circumstances has occurred before (2010 I believe).


We're fortunate to not work within the confines of a high school so we can work on some days where its snowy/wintery (students take the subway to the lab). However I know many teams around us that have been severely hampered by the many snow days/closed labs. This is a nice gesture to help those teams.

-Brando

[loyal]

Like I said I'm not being confrontational. Haters are gonna hate.

[Ryan Dognaux]

Originally Posted by loyal

Like I said I'm not being confrontational. Haters are gonna hate.

No but you are making a point that somehow giving teams a greater weight allowance isn't a good call by FIRST. They've made this call in the past and even extended build season by a few days once (if I remember correctly it was because FedEx couldn't pick up everyone's crates in time), so this isn't unprecedented.

Great job FIRST! We've missed a few days and will definitely use the extra weight allowance.

[buildmaster5000]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

We're at 5 missed days (in Minnesota, where the snow is higher than my car roof on the sides of my driveway!), and yet we have the robot electrically and mechanically finished a week and a half earlier than we've ever had before. The early finish has less to do with the weather and more to do with the dedication and drive of our captains... they've been really awesome this year!

THIS. THIS is what FIRST is all about. They have inspired the students and the students are now passionate about robots and are passing the passion to the next generation.

I tip my hat to you, Team 2177.

[artdutra04]

Originally Posted by Ryan Dognaux

No but you are making a point that somehow giving teams a greater weight allowance isn't a good call by FIRST. They've made this call in the past and even extended build season by a few days once (if I remember correctly it was because FedEx couldn't pick up everyone's crates in time), so this isn't unprecedented.

Great job FIRST! We've missed a few days and will definitely use the extra weight allowance.

Yes, 2003 was extended due to a major blizzard on the east coast on ship date, and 2004 was extended two days because a lot of teams received their KOP late.

[cadandcookies]

Originally Posted by loyal

Constraints and unforeseen problems are part of the learning exercise. That has always been the answer from FIRST in the past. Facts that can not be argued. I am not being confrontational just truthful.

Unfortunately this is flat out incorrect. In 2010 the withholding allowance was increased to 65 lbs. You are being confrontational when you state your opinion as fact without supporting evidence. (Un)fortunately, proving something false is significantly easier than proving something true.

Originally Posted by loyal

Like I said I'm not being confrontational. Haters are gonna hate.

This would imply that there are indeed haters towards you, which I haven't seen so far in this thread. Respectful disagreement is not hate-- rising above hate is honorable, rising above a respectful disagreement is insulting.

[Anupam Goli]

Originally Posted by loyal

Like I said I'm not being confrontational. Haters are gonna hate.

It's not the fact that it was bad weather itself, but what the bad weather lead to. There are multiple school districts that have had schools closed for 5-10 days at a time, which is different. If all of these districts had the resources to combat the weather early, and kept schools open, perhaps FIRST wouldn't have granted the withholding allowance addition. FIRST is giving an exception due to circumstances beyond most teams' control. The bad weather also lead to huge shipping delays for most companies, which is also something that is beyond most teams' control. Now perhaps, if the delays were in the teams' control, maybe FIRST wouldn't give an additional 15 pounds for withholding...