Not bagging entire robot? (Rule Change)

[fox46]

With the proliferation of VEX and AndyMark robot components, I wish they would change this rule. For most teams the only non-COTS parts are their frame and structures of their robot. A well rehearsed team could quite feasibly bring their entire robot to a competition unbagged and assemble it at the venue quite easily.

[buildmaster5000]

People seem to be missing an important piece of information here: you can bring 45 pounds of stuff in now, but that 45 pounds includes any ASSEMBLIES. The example of a motor with a pinion is an ASSEMBLY. That goes against your 45 pounds. So does your assembled super shifter, or your pretty piece of wood that is already cut out. In fact, the argument that a piece of aluminum that is cut to a specific length is a FABRICATED ITEM and would count is pretty valid too.

Let's be fair here. There has been lots of snow, but remember that, at one time, we had to SHIP the robots in crates.

[cgmv123]

Originally Posted by fox46

With the proliferation of VEX and AndyMark robot components, I wish they would change this rule. For most teams the only non-COTS parts are their frame and structures of their robot. A well rehearsed team could quite feasibly bring their entire robot to a competition unbagged and assemble it at the venue quite easily.

If something is assembled from a kit of COTS items, it is a fabricated item and counts toward the withholding allowance. [Q257]

[yash101]

What COTS basically says is that you may not tamper with any off-the-shelf parts or it will become a fabricated part. This is typically used for the electronics because they don't want you to be messing with your cRIO or other robot parts!
I don't think COTS is preventing you from doing this. However, the inspectors have the ability to deem your part as dangerous if it holds back many pounds of force and can make you disable or remove that part, so be careful!

And, how the heck did you get the robot to weigh about 65 pounds? Do you just drive around and push the balls around? I think our drivetrain weighs 20-30 pounds by itself. With the electronics, we are already looking at another 10-20 pounds, making it 40-50 pounds right there. Then, you have your mechanisms. Typically, that will take up the rest of the weight!

[Pault]

Originally Posted by buildmaster5000

People seem to be missing an important piece of information here: you can bring 45 pounds of stuff in now, but that 45 pounds includes any ASSEMBLIES. The example of a motor with a pinion is an ASSEMBLY. That goes against your 45 pounds. So does your assembled super shifter, or your pretty piece of wood that is already cut out. In fact, the argument that a piece of aluminum that is cut to a specific length is a FABRICATED ITEM and would count is pretty valid too.

Let's be fair here. There has been lots of snow, but remember that, at one time, we had to SHIP the robots in crates.

Your 2 for 3. Because you can buy a Super Shifter already assembled, it doesn't count towards the 45 as long as you haven't attached anything to it (ie a sprocket or a robot).

[Taylor]

Originally Posted by fox46

With the proliferation of VEX and AndyMark robot components, I wish they would change this rule. For most teams the only non-COTS parts are their frame and structures of their robot. A well rehearsed team could quite feasibly bring their entire robot to a competition unbagged and assemble it at the venue quite easily.

And the problem is?

They'd lose quite a bit of time Thursday building their robot, missing out on practice time with other teams at the event, push back their inspection, really put themselves in the weeds.
If they want to make that trade, I say let 'em.

[JamesCH95]

Originally Posted by Taylor

And the problem is?

They'd lose quite a bit of time Thursday building their robot, missing out on practice time with other teams at the event, push back their inspection, really put themselves in the weeds.
If they want to make that trade, I say let 'em.

Just train your team up like these guys. No problem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgwF8mdQwlw

[Joe Ross]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

Let me remind everyone of the wording of R18:

(Per the blog, 30 is now 45, but that has not been reflected in a team update yet, so the rule I copied still says 30. I expect this will be rectified in the next team update)

To me, this implies that an actual robot is bagged and brought in. Combine that with R1:

These two would seem to imply that, while you can bring in plenty of fabricated parts, you can't bring in a whole robot outside of the bag. And for that, I would use the "impartial observer" rule - if your grandmother was standing there looking at it and says "what a nice robot you built!" then it's a robot.

This seems like very specious reasoning to me. A ROBOT is a FABRICATED ITEM that consists of many FABRICATED ITEMS. R1 prevents a team from bringing 2 ROBOTs in bags, or 1 ROBOT in a bag and 1 ROBOT outside a bag. How does it keep someone from bringing 1 ROBOT outside a bag and no ROBOT inside a bag?

There's no requirement that a ROBOT be in the bag, and many teams do not have a ROBOT in the bag. Many teams withhold their cRIO, so they can continue programming. If there isn't a cRIO in the bag, there is no control, and therefore whatever else is in the bag is not a ROBOT. The bag and tag rules say "robot" and not "ROBOT".

A better argument is from R15.

Teams must stay “hands-off” their ROBOT during the following time periods:

from Stop Build Day until their first event,
during the period(s) between their events, and
outside of Pit hours while attending events.
...

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

There was a similar issue a few years ago (2010) when it was bumped up to 65 lbs - some teams simply didn't bag anything because their entire robot was under 65 lbs. We really don't want to see teams walking in with a robot unbagged and some fabricated parts they want to attach to the robot bagged.

Is this a personal opinion, or has this been discussed by the LRIs and/or GDC? If the later, today's team update should have clarification. Otherwise, you will see this situation, and I'd hate for a team to be told they can't compete because the rules were not explicit.

[Jon Stratis]

Joe - the requirement that the robot be in the bag really comes from R18 - the fabricated items you bring with outside of the bag you are for repair/upgrade of the ROBOT - this clearly implies that those fabricated items are not the actual ROBOT. So if you can't bring the robot in as a fabricated item under R18 (as it would not be a repair/upgrade for the ROBOT), then it either has to come in the bag or not at all.

At this point, my statements are personal opinion - I am not a part of the GDC. However, I believe it is in the intent of the rules that the robot is bagged, and not carried into the competition outside of the bag. I can tell you that if a team did have their robot outside of the bag (but kept it under 45 lbs), then as an LRI I would have to deal with the situation. That would include a discussion with the FTA and the head ref, and probably a phone call to HQ (baring any preexisting ruling from the GDC in a team update or Q&A).

We have a very difficult job of both enforcing the rules (telling teams they did something wrong and there's a penalty for it) and providing an environment where the kids are inspired (getting them on the field and playing as best they can). In a case where a team violates a major rule (for example, never bagging their robot and carrying it in unbagged), how do you enforce the rules without driving those students away from FIRST and everything we're trying to accomplish?

[Nirvash]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

Joe - the requirement that the robot be in the bag really comes from R18 - the fabricated items you bring with outside of the bag you are for repair/upgrade of the ROBOT - this clearly implies that those fabricated items are not the actual ROBOT. So if you can't bring the robot in as a fabricated item under R18 (as it would not be a repair/upgrade for the ROBOT), then it either has to come in the bag or not at all.

If a team builds two kit drive bases, bags one and builds the superstructure of the robot on the unbagged drivebase. Then for the competition they unbolt the superstructure from the drivebase and assuming it weighs less then 45lbs, bring in to 'upgrade' the robot in the bag.
Is that acceptable?

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Nirvash

If a team builds two kit drive bases, bags one and builds the superstructure of the robot on the unbagged drivebase. Then for the competition they unbolt the superstructure from the drivebase and assuming it weighs less then 45lbs, bring in to 'upgrade' the robot in the bag.
Is that acceptable?

Yes that would be legal under current rules.

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by Nirvash

If a team builds two kit drive bases, bags one and builds the superstructure of the robot on the unbagged drivebase. Then for the competition they unbolt the superstructure from the drivebase and assuming it weighs less then 45lbs, bring in to 'upgrade' the robot in the bag.
Is that acceptable?

As I read the rules, you would have a ROBOT in the bag and various assemblies that do not add up to a ROBOT outside of the bag, which makes it legal. That's something a lot of teams do every year - they build their robot, then they remove one or more assembly that attaches to it to continue testing.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

As I read the rules, you would have a ROBOT in the bag and various assemblies that do not add up to a ROBOT outside of the bag, which makes it legal. That's something a lot of teams do every year - they build their robot, then they remove one or more assembly that attaches to it to continue testing.

So, to achieve this a team could bag a junk drive with some electronics and carry in a good deal of systems that would then be assembled with cannibalized parts from the bagged robot to create a robot out of what was just a pile of dumb systems.

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

So, to achieve this a team could bag a junk drive with some electronics and carry in a good deal of systems that would then be assembled with cannibalized parts from the bagged robot to create a robot out of what was just a pile of dumb systems.

so long as they aren't carrying in something that would be considered a ROBOT... which is where the whole debate comes in At what point do we consider an assembly or collection of parts a robot? I don't think the rules are very clear on this - the definition of ROBOT is "It includes all of the basic systems required to be an active participant in the game: power, communications, control, mobility, and actuation." So a strict reading of that would be that anything without a cRIO is not a ROBOT, even if it has everything else you need and you just bolt the cRIO on when you get to the competition. I don't feel that would be in the spirit of the rules, however.

Last year, there was a certain Minnesota team that competed with what we dubbed "a different robot at each event". They carried in a different shooter (under 30 lbs) to each event, and spent the first day of the event making major modifications to their robot to support the new shooter. The end result was that every event I saw their robot at, it looked like they had a different robot! In this case, however, it was clear that what they were bringing in would be considered an upgraded assembly intended to replace something on their robot.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

so long as they aren't carrying in something that would be considered a ROBOT... which is where the whole debate comes in At what point do we consider an assembly or collection of parts a robot? I don't think the rules are very clear on this - the definition of ROBOT is "It includes all of the basic systems required to be an active participant in the game: power, communications, control, mobility, and actuation." So a strict reading of that would be that anything without a cRIO is not a ROBOT, even if it has everything else you need and you just bolt the cRIO on when you get to the competition. I don't feel that would be in the spirit of the rules, however.

Last year, there was a certain Minnesota team that competed with what we dubbed "a different robot at each event". They carried in a different shooter (under 30 lbs) to each event, and spent the first day of the event making major modifications to their robot to support the new shooter. The end result was that every event I saw their robot at, it looked like they had a different robot! In this case, however, it was clear that what they were bringing in would be considered an upgraded assembly intended to replace something on their robot.

So with a trivial amount of work a team can get around your interpretation of not bringing in a "robot".