Non-sagging Bumpers Q&A Response

[JB987]

A "third hand", gently applied, would be much appreciated, Al!

[Steven Donow]

Thanks for the further input/history lesson, Al. You're awrdome at what you do and explaining what you do.


My question for you is, since obviously you can't expect(at least in my opinion) EXACTLY 2.5 in pool noodles, what's a reasonable, legal tolerance on that? Its hard, in my experience, to get a nice, taut covering of the bumpers without compressing the pool noodle somewhat. Maybe this question is missing the point of what you said, or maybe I'm just a little OCD about wrapping bumpers. Any input?

[Al Skierkiewicz]

The pool noodles are not exactly 2.5" But the small amount that you compress while making tight fabric is not significant. We learned how to make them tight from some of our team moms, my wife among them. Believe me, if you want them to look nice get some parents involved.

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by DevenStonow

Thanks for the further input/history lesson, Al. You're awrdome at what you do and explaining what you do.


My question for you is, since obviously you can't expect(at least in my opinion) EXACTLY 2.5 in pool noodles, what's a reasonable, legal tolerance on that? Its hard, in my experience, to get a nice, taut covering of the bumpers without compressing the pool noodle somewhat. Maybe this question is missing the point of what you said, or maybe I'm just a little OCD about wrapping bumpers. Any input?

As Inspectors, it's not our job to lawyer the rules, only to enforce them. When the rules are clear cut (like the 112" frame perimeter), we enforce it as strictly as the rules call for. When they aren't clear cut (like the approximately 2.5" pool noodles), we don't go looking for trouble. We aren't going to measure every noodle and set some arbitrary limit for "close enough" that isn't already in the rules. In fact, I personally avoid trying to measure something like that unless I have reason to suspect something is wrong - by look the bumpers are clearly not as big as all the other bumpers in the regional, or by feel the noodles don't feel like the hundreds of other noodles I've grabbed in the past few years, or be weight your bumpers are an outlier (when compared to other similar sized bumpers) with no readily apparent (like giant steel mounting brackets) explanation for it. If you make bumpers that look like like all the other bumpers we see on every robot (especially if they look nice!), we'll be focusing on other things.

[AllenGregoryIV]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

The pool noodles are not exactly 2.5" But the small amount that you compress while making tight fabric is not significant. We learned how to make them tight from some of our team moms, my wife among them. Believe me, if you want them to look nice get some parents involved.

Al, thank you for the explanation. So your interruption is that the rule regarding using 2.5" Pool noodles, dictates the state that they are in when on the robot? That seems very odd to me. I am really trying to find a way to justify teams not compressing bumpers in the rules and that rule has always read to me that the pool noodles should be manufactured at 2.5". Otherwise a team could use larger pool noodles and compress them down to 2.5" diameter and that doesn't seem legal either. What I'm trying to get at is the rule set seems incomplete. If the GDC's intent is for bumper pool noodles not to be compressed their should be a rule that states that. Under the current rule set I would have a hard time justifying forcing a team with compressed bumpers to remake their bumpers.

[Carolyn_Grace]

[quote=Al Skierkiewicz;1334700]OK, So I didn't think a simple answer would prompt such a reaction but wow, winter is really taking it's toll this year. So normally I would talk about bumpers in my annual inspection thread but I can deviate a little and discuss them here. This will be a history lesson, there will be a quiz at the end. [...edited down]

...wait. Where's my quiz? I like quizzes.
Is this like a "What kind of bumpers would you be?" quiz that Buzzfeed would post?

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by AllenGregoryIV

Al, thank you for the explanation. So your interruption is that the rule regarding using 2.5" Pool noodles, dictates the state that they are in when on the robot? That seems very odd to me. I am really trying to find a way to justify teams not compressing bumpers in the rules and that rule has always read to me that the pool noodles should be manufactured at 2.5". Otherwise a team could use larger pool noodles and compress them down to 2.5" diameter and that doesn't seem legal either. What I'm trying to get at is the rule set seems incomplete. If the GDC's intent is for bumper pool noodles not to be compressed their should be a rule that states that. Under the current rule set I would have a hard time justifying forcing a team with compressed bumpers to remake their bumpers.

If they compressed their pool noodles significantly, how can you know they used the proper diameter noodles without having them take apart their bumpers and show the noodles in an uncompressed state?

[AllenGregoryIV]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

If they compressed their pool noodles significantly, how can you know they used the proper diameter noodles without having them take apart their bumpers and show the noodles in an uncompressed state?

Many ways, the main one being a group of 20+ people including students tell that they did, maybe I'm an optimist but I like to believe an entire FRC team isn't going to lie to my face. It's the same way I know a team didn't put some hazardous material inside any of their extrusion, they tell me they didn't. I don't require them to take apart their robot to prove it's not there.

If you want more evidence a team could have photos of them constructing them, or they could have a sample bumper section they are willing to take apart.

[AllenGregoryIV]

Alright I know no one wants to see this thread brought back up but the GDC has cleared up some of the issues with another short and sweet response.

Q302

Q . R21 C states that teams should use a pair of 2.5" pool noodles. Does that requirement refer to the pool noodle's size when on the robot, the pool noodles size when purchased, or both? Is compressing pool noodles legal?

A. 1) Both. 2) No.

That's not the way I have read the rule over the past couple years, but it's entirely valid and the way it will be enforced.

A follow up question to the initial question about securing pool noodles using gaffers tape has still not been answered.

[Joe Ross]

Does Q302 now make it illegal to have anything but straight bumper segments, as any curve compresses the pool noodle. I guess Figure 4-5 will have to be modified.

[AllenGregoryIV]

Originally Posted by Joe Ross

Does Q302 now make it illegal to have anything but straight bumper segments, as any curve compresses the pool noodle. I guess Figure 4-5 will have to be modified.

I'm not really sure, we used to wrap the pool noodles around the corners but they are definitely much smaller than 2.5" once that happens.

[Siri]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

...In fact, I personally avoid trying to measure something like that unless I have reason to suspect something is wrong - by look the bumpers are clearly not as big as all the other bumpers in the regional, or by feel the noodles don't feel like the hundreds of other noodles I've grabbed in the past few years, or be weight your bumpers are an outlier (when compared to other similar sized bumpers) with no readily apparent (like giant steel mounting brackets) explanation for it.

Emphasis mine. Just to be clear, are you agreeing this is legal? Given that robust mounting is legally required, is there something against steel or largeness? We use steel to secure our brackets to the wood.

[jvriezen]

Originally Posted by Siri

Emphasis mine. Just to be clear, are you agreeing this is legal? Given that robust mounting is legally required, is there something against steel or largeness? We use steel to secure our brackets to the wood.

In 2012, at the recommendation of a Lead Robot Inspector/Mentor on our team we used a steel plate-- about 28" x ~3" bent into a 'J' shape that ran the length of the bumper and engaged our frame member. It passed inspections at regionals. This included an inspector named Al, who you might be familiar with The entire length of the steel was part of making a very robust attachment system.

But adding steel (or any other material) with no purpose other than adding weight or strengthening the bumper plywood would be a no no, I believe. The method we used had the primary purpose of attachment to frame, and it incidentally added weight and bumper rigidity.

[Chris is me]

Okay, so you can't tape noodles, and you can't compress noodles at all? I guess all of our bumpers will be saggy this year. Don't pull that fabric too tight, or else you'll compress the bumper a little bit!

Seriously, the only thing that stops a pool noodle from sagging is fabric tension, which compresses the noodle (even a little bit is illegal according to that ruling). By the letter of the ruling, any non-saggy bumper should fail inspection for compression, and any saggy bumper should fail for, well, sagging. I honestly believe at this point that the GDC has never built a set of bumpers.

[Adamz_]

not taping the noodles doesnt effect the bumper too badly, my team made one set of bumpers today, and we managed to get an non saggy bumper with little to no compression of the noddles. all it takes is a little finagling .