Any Wicked Awesome Goalies out there ?

[magnets]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

This is incorrect. Logic would show you that preventing an opponent from scoring is exactly the same as scoring the same number of points yourself when it comes to determining who won the match. 0-1 match scores, while boring, count the same as 0-120 scores from a WLT perspective.

However, this changes when you start looking at it from a ranking perspective rather than a winning perspective. Take, for example, years where your second sort was based off of your opponent's score. During those years it was beneficial to allow your opponents to score so long as you could outscore them.

So, what I'm saying is that offense or defense wins matches (it doesn't matter which one) but offense tends to rank higher. Now, the really fun part of the discussion involves the difficulty and risk of effective defense as well as the metagame of the area you are playing. You also need to take into account the difference between effective defense and crappy defense (I'll give you a hint 90% of defense is of the crappy variety, maybe more).

Yup. Winning the match is always the first priority. It's a win if you score more than your partners. It's also a win if you prevent your partner from scoring any points at all.

The best offense is a good defense!

[Pault]

If we are talking about top tier teams, which we originally were, the question isn't so much "is defense effective?" as it is "is defense more effective than offense, given their vast capabilities?" I believe that the answer is no. I question how effective an amazing defense bot can really be. Blocking is pretty much out of the question, because you can just send a robot to push any goalie out of the way. Anyways, the "safe zones" that you may have heard about elsewhere on CD are immune to goalies. And what else is there? You can have an awesome, powerful drivetrain, but most top tier teams have one already. And top tier teams already have great drivers. They could also put up a 5ft wall for blocking, but that is trivial for these powerhouses. I can't imagine any other way that you could be more effective at defense. So they have the choice to either call themselves a defensive bot and be finished halfway through week 2, or add on offensive mechanisms and be able to be both (like they have always done). Is that really even a decision?

[Charlie_Miner]

choosing to play defense can be a hard one, although the team that I am apart of decided that in the long run (finals) it would be more beneficial and look more appealing to high ranked teams. Message me for details about robot if you want to know more.

[Joe Ross]

The most dominant defensive robot I've seen recently is 1011 at the Arizona regional in 2011. They did not score during the regional. They went 5-1-3 (the 3 ties were 0-0) and seeded 11th.

[Master Mac]

our team won in Montreal last year because we could hang, shooter in auto, and defend like mad. Defense is always important.

[discobrisco]

Team 2410 has a telescoping arm which runs of a window motor and weighs under 10 pounds. It easily extends over the top of the goal, we've nailed it with balls and it has yet to yield at all, our only concern is keeping it verticals however so far it has been working fantastic. Unless somebody is blocking us directly we can block pretty much anything from what I've seen in our practice matches.

[JamesCH95]

Originally Posted by discobrisco

Team 2410 has a telescoping arm which runs of a window motor and weighs under 10 pounds. It easily extends over the top of the goal, we've nailed it with balls and it has yet to yield at all, our only concern is keeping it verticals however so far it has been working fantastic. Unless somebody is blocking us directly we can block pretty much anything from what I've seen in our practice matches.

Pics/vids or ban!

[hrench]

I think a problem with being goalie is that because of where you have to hang-out, you probably won't be a part of any assists. You'll actually take points away from your own team.

Thoughts?

[Ladiesman217]

Were going with a man on man defense for this year, most of the bots we have seen are pretty low and have a ball trajectory that is easy to block.

[JohnSchneider]

Originally Posted by Joe Ross

The most dominant defensive robot I've seen recently is 1011 at the Arizona regional in 2011. They did not score during the regional. They went 5-1-3 (the 3 ties were 0-0) and seeded 11th.

2789 in 2013....

[bentjeans]

Originally Posted by hrench

I think a problem with being goalie is that because of where you have to hang-out, you probably won't be a part of any assists. You'll actually take points away from your own team.

Thoughts?

Isn't that goalie zone very near to where you'd want to be inbounding balls? The video link above in the thread shows the goalie deploying a net and catching a ball tossed into the field. So the goalie actually becomes the possessing bot in that first zone. If the goalie is busy with the one-and-only opponent game piece at the moment inbound is needed, the inbounder could toss the ball further upfield to a mate, or a mate could inbound that cycle. So goalie could probably inbound about half of the balls for the alliance (unless they are a really good goalie, in which case your opponent is going to spend the rest of the match in their offense zone trying to clear their blocked autonomous balls and trying to pin and push the goalie around

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by hrench

I think a problem with being goalie is that because of where you have to hang-out, you probably won't be a part of any assists. You'll actually take points away from your own team.

Thoughts?

I don't think that's true at all. There will be quite a bit of team when the goalie bot isn't blocking shots, and during that time, they can certainly receive an inbounded ball and pass it up the field. Even if they don't have a ball holder, they can still possess the ball...

[jvriezen]

Originally Posted by ohrly?

My team put a LOT of consideration into the idea, but ultimately the mentors vetoed the dedicated goalie.

This saddens me.

Originally Posted by bEdhEd

From my experience, being offensive wins matches more often than being defensive. I've found that acquiring more points for your own alliance is much more valuable than preventing the other alliance from scoring. The bottom line is that offense scores points, and defense does not. Teams like 1114 and 118 are aware of this, and may be too busy during a match scoring assists and goals, that they need not bother with being a goalie. I do see a possibility, though, of a high performance team choosing a good goalie robot -- that ideally can also score in the low or high goal and can do controlled assists -- as an alliance pick.

What you say is generally true. Outscoring your opponents is what wins. If your combined offense and defense is better than theirs you win, and that depends on the game and the effectiveness of the defense. In 2000, team 25 had the ultimate defensive robot. It could score almost zero on general offense, but could remove balls from their opponents goal and score them for their alliance. They couldn't qualify worth a darn, but were deadly with the right partner and ultimately ended up on the Championship alliance.

In this year's game, with a lot of high scoring teams likely, it is possible that a good defensive robot vs. the opponents high scorer might even the odds in elimination. Most likely that defensive (third choice) will be a generalist that can maneuver, pass, score with a kick-$@#$@#$@# driver as opposed to a special defense only bot.

A remote possibility is an autonomous defense specialist. This will only come about if someone has such a devastating autonomous scorer that a defense is needed. It is unknown if a super autonomous scorer will be developed.

[JamesCH95]

Originally Posted by Dr.Bot

What you say is generally true. Outscoring your opponents is what wins. If your combined offense and defense is better than theirs you win, and that depends on the game and the effectiveness of the defense. In 2000, team 25 had the ultimate defensive robot. It could score almost zero on general offense, but could remove balls from their opponents goal and score them for their alliance. They couldn't qualify worth a darn, but were deadly with the right partner and ultimately ended up on the Championship alliance.

In this year's game, with a lot of high scoring teams likely, it is possible that a good defensive robot vs. the opponents high scorer might even the odds in elimination. Most likely that defensive (third choice) will be a generalist that can maneuver, pass, score with a kick-$@#$@#$@# driver as opposed to a special defense only bot.

A remote possibility is an autonomous defense specialist. This will only come about if someone has such a devastating autonomous scorer that a defense is needed. It is unknown if a super autonomous scorer will be developed.

A number of teams have shown videos with 2- and 3-ball auto moves. I think that qualifies as a devastating autonomous scorer. A blocker that could stop one of those robots will make life very miserable for the other alliance.