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Unread 11-02-2014, 22:29
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Pneumatics with diode

First, I am sorry for such a crude schematic, but I dont feel like making it pretty. Would this even work for having the ability to shoot one piston or all three at the same time, and then have them all retract. And more importantly would this be legal in FIRST?

(grey boxes are solenoids)
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Unread 11-02-2014, 22:38
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Re: Pneumatics with diode

See rule R51. Each solenoid must be connected to a separate output on the solenoid breakout. So no it is not legal. You can do the same thing in software though.

I assuming the grey boxes are actually valves with 2 solenoids each?
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Unread 11-02-2014, 22:50
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Re: Pneumatics with diode

They are double acting solenoids. So to clarify, this means that no solenoids may be connected by Y's?
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Unread 11-02-2014, 22:58
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Re: Pneumatics with diode

Correct. Only one solenoid per output on the solenoid breakout. It is on R51 chart.

You could use spikes if they are 12 volt solenoids. But that is a different story.
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Unread 11-02-2014, 23:21
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Re: Pneumatics with diode

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Originally Posted by FrankJ View Post
See rule R51. Each solenoid must be connected to a separate output on the solenoid breakout. So no it is not legal. You can do the same thing in software though.

I assuming the grey boxes are actually valves with 2 solenoids each?
Correct me if Im wrong, but it does not say per output on the solenoid breakout, but the solenoid breakout as a whole, so if this idea is correct that you can only power one solenoid per "solenoid breakout" then you could only have one solenoid at 24 volts. I am also unsure about the use of the plural "pneumatic solenoid valves".

Im not trying to argue with you, but if your way is the correct ruling then we will need to think of a new way to run all of our valves, as we have a few of them Yed together.
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Unread 12-02-2014, 00:59
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Per output on solenoid breakout means there are many outputs on one single 24V solenoid breakout. There should be plenty of space for multiple solenoids to be wired to one solenoid breakout.
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Unread 12-02-2014, 08:10
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Re: Pneumatics with diode

Frank is correct on this rule. The solenoid module has limited current capability as is referenced in R42. However, this follows the table...
*Multiple low-load, pneumatic solenoid valves, electric solenoids or CUSTOM CIRCUITS may be connected to a single relay module. This would allow one (1) relay module to drive multiple pneumatic actions or multiple CUSTOM CIRCUITS. No other electrical load can be connected to a relay module used in this manner.
The diode shown in your diagram would really not perform as you want. The Spike can be used such that it feeds two solenoid branches with a single device. The outputs independently switch to +12 volts which may help your design. Spikes cannot be used for 24 volt solenoids.
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Unread 12-02-2014, 11:12
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Re: Pneumatics with diode

I must be missing something. The way I see it, this statement:

Quote:
*Multiple low-load, pneumatic solenoid valves, electric solenoids or CUSTOM CIRCUITS may be connected to a single relay module. This would allow one (1) relay module to drive multiple pneumatic actions or multiple CUSTOM CIRCUITS. No other electrical load can be connected to a relay module used in this manner.
Says you CAN connect multiple pneumatic solenoids to either a spike or the solenoid breakout. Both have the asterisk which points to this statement.
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Unread 12-02-2014, 12:20
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Re: Pneumatics with diode

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz View Post
Frank is correct on this rule. The solenoid module has limited current capability as is referenced in R42. However, this follows the table...
*Multiple low-load, pneumatic solenoid valves, electric solenoids or CUSTOM CIRCUITS may be connected to a single relay module. This would allow one (1) relay module to drive multiple pneumatic actions or multiple CUSTOM CIRCUITS. No other electrical load can be connected to a relay module used in this manner.
The diode shown in your diagram would really not perform as you want. The Spike can be used such that it feeds two solenoid branches with a single device. The outputs independently switch to +12 volts which may help your design. Spikes cannot be used for 24 volt solenoids.
Is there any legal way to control more than 4 24 volt solenoids? Our solenoids only need power to switch, so we do not need to have them always on, only when we switch.

R42 says that we may only have 1 solenoid breakout in the 24 volt PDB port, and Q237 says that you may not have a 12 to 24 volt converter power the breakout, so there is no way to power a second breakout.
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Unread 12-02-2014, 12:46
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Re: Pneumatics with diode

You can only 8 solenoids to a solenoid break out. That is all you get at 24V. Your valves have 2 solenoids that is why you can only control 4 valves. Going to a single solenoid valve will allow eight valves assuming you stay in your power budget.

If you read R51 in its entirety & look at chart 4-4 above the reference about multiple loads you will see it only applies to spikes.
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Unread 12-02-2014, 13:13
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Re: Pneumatics with diode

Kevin,
R42 for just one 24 volt solenoid module refers to the power supply on the PD. This supply is not capable of the current required for the cRio and two solenoid modules. You may build a 24 volt power convertor as a Custom Circuit and feed two solenoid modules (or one in addition to the one fed from the PD power supply.) provided all other electrical rules are followed.
Martin, the asterisk references the Spike column only in R51.
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Unread 12-02-2014, 13:20
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Re: Pneumatics with diode

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz View Post
You may build a 24 volt power convertor as a Custom Circuit and feed two solenoid modules (or one in addition to the one fed from the PD power supply.) provided all other electrical rules are followed.
The answer to Q237 says otherwise. :-( It refers to R53, which prohibits custom circuits from affecting the power pathways to a bunch of things including solenoid modules.
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Unread 12-02-2014, 13:28
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Re: Pneumatics with diode

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Selavko View Post
Is there any legal way to control more than 4 24 volt solenoids? Our solenoids only need power to switch, so we do not need to have them always on, only when we switch.

R42 says that we may only have 1 solenoid breakout in the 24 volt PDB port, and Q237 says that you may not have a 12 to 24 volt converter power the breakout, so there is no way to power a second breakout.
Is there a reason you are using dual solenoid valves? The only reason I can see to use a dual solenoid valve is if you want to set a condition and have it remain after the end of a period (autonomous or teleop). Otherwise, use single solenoid valves. For instance, for a shooter, use a two position two work port valve, so that it defaults to retract (normal or un-powered state). When voltage is applied, the valve shifts and the cylinder extends, and stays that way until power is removed. I would also recommend 12V valves. This way, you can control eight valves instead of just four.
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Unread 12-02-2014, 13:40
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Re: Pneumatics with diode

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Anderson View Post
The answer to Q237 says otherwise. :-( It refers to R53, which prohibits custom circuits from affecting the power pathways to a bunch of things including solenoid modules.
Standby...
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Unread 12-02-2014, 13:41
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Re: Pneumatics with diode

Quote:
Originally Posted by martin417 View Post
Is there a reason you are using dual solenoid valves? The only reason I can see to use a dual solenoid valve is if you want to set a condition and have it remain after the end of a period (autonomous or teleop). Otherwise, use single solenoid valves. For instance, for a shooter, use a two position two work port valve, so that it defaults to retract (normal or un-powered state). When voltage is applied, the valve shifts and the cylinder extends, and stays that way until power is removed. I would also recommend 12V valves. This way, you can control eight valves instead of just four.
The primary reasoning for using them is that they are the Solenoids that we have available to us from previous years. We also purchased more of the same type as we had experience using them and knew that they worked well.
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