Administrative and Game Manual updates - 2/11

[BigJ]

Originally Posted by fox46

I assure you our driver isn't getting any experience.

Neither is anyone else's (with their competition robots), if they follow the rules.

Regarding "FIRST is so easy now!", please proceed to the 7 other threads this year already discussing the issue

[Ty Tremblay]

Easier doesn't necessarily mean worse. Making the repetitious tasks easy to repeat has happened throughout history. Builders don't saw their own logs or forge their own steel but we're building some of the tallest and most amazing structures in the world.

A very intelligent friend of mine has a saying about drivetrains.

A drive train isn't going to win an event for you, but it sure can lose one.

A "COTS" drive train enables a team to focus on what WILL win an event for you, the end-effector. If we didn't make the stuff we do every year "easier", FRC robots would have improved much slower than they have year-to-year.

As for drivers practice during demonstrations, that's a matter of Gracious Professionalism and honor.

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by fox46

I think this new rule with respect to demonstrations violates FIRST's own "third party observer" rule. How would you explain it to your grandmother that you can't keep working on or testing the robot because it's beyond "stop build day" and in its bag...... Then you turn around and unbag it to drive it around. I miss the days when a FedEx truck would show up and take the robot away from you. Much less chance for teams to pull post-stop-build-day shenanigans.

This rule is really fortuitously timed for 4901. Our flagship sponsor (the University of South Carolina College of Engineering and Computing) has their National Engineering Week open house the Saturday after ship day. As rookies, we have no spare robot. In past years with another team that built there, we had no working robot since we had to yank the cRIO for the robot that's in the bag.

As for the "not practice" rule, we (I) plan to document the heck out of it. Robot as it left the bag, robot as it entered the bag, the space where we ran it (which seeing the map of that open house won't resemble the field at all), who ran it (there's a bounty for a picture of Cocky running it), and have that all with us. Anyone who wants to say something can say something.

(Caution: Off-Topic Discusion Follows)

Seems like FIRST is getting easier and easier every year. All you really need to do this year is pick-up and throw a ball- half of the robot pictures I've seen on CD here look identical. The only real part of the robot being built anymore is the frame which holds all the COTS items together and even those can be purchased "off the shelf". (Veterans- remember trying to mount drill motors? Or having a 20000RPM motor with no clue how to use it?) Between the number of COTS items available from awesome vendors like AM and VEX, three different groups posting videos and instructions within the 1st week on "how to build your aerial ascent robot", the ever-increasing withholding allowances, being allowed to unbag in order to drive your machine around... Yes it is his 10th demonstration this week but no no grandma- I assure you our driver isn't getting any experience. Anyone know where to get more lockup tags?

This is my eleventh time at the rodeo, 13th robot. The first one didn't even move until Week 6, when we plunked in two window motors out of sheer desperation. The second one, we struggled with the old AM Trick Wheels (remember those?) not spinning freely until we had to stick a nigh-uncontrollable caster on the back of the robot. The third one we took a portaband to on Saturday of Palmetto for better defense because we couldn't shake our sticking-ball demons. The fourth one straight clocked me in the jaw with a window motor at high speed.

I say all this to frame my next statement: This is the hardest season I've been a part of, bar none. We watched the Robot In 3 Days and Build Blitz videos, and yes, you'll see we cribbed off more than one machine when we take the covers off Sandstorm I. But the process of starting a team from bare walls with no school backing us up, the process of getting the kids and mentors all on the same page, getting the parts at all, integrating those parts, balancing "We can do that here in our space" against "We should send that part out for cuts", battling three or four days lost to winter weather (Will we have shirts for the FLL state championship Saturday? Will we have an FLL state championship Saturday?), and generally trying to make the most out of the 15-20 hours a week in the shop? That's still hard. And I wouldn't change a thing.

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by fox46

I think this new rule with respect to demonstrations violates FIRST's own "third party observer" rule. How would you explain it to your grandmother that you can't keep working on or testing the robot because it's beyond "stop build day" and in its bag...... Then you turn around and unbag it to drive it around. I miss the days when a FedEx truck would show up and take the robot away from you. Much less chance for teams to pull post-stop-build-day shenanigans.

I would simply explain to her FIRST's name - For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology. Yes, we can't work on the robot or use it for driver practice. But in order to further inspiration and get the word out in the community we have the robot unbagged for a demonstration where someone other than our drivers are controlling it.

The real fact I think you're missing is that this rule is nothing new. Ever since Bag and Tag started teams have been e-mailing FIRST asking if they can unbag for a demonstration event. And FIRST has replied "Yes! print out this e-mail and show it to the LRI at your next event so he knows you got permission for the unbag period". All this does is remove the hassle and requirement for teams to e-mail FIRST and for LRI's to deal with teams forgetting to bring the e-mailed permission with them to an event.

Wait, it does do one more thing... it perhaps gets our robots out there in the community more, as more teams know about this "special" demonstration unbagging. It makes demos more effective, increases public awareness, and helps to inspire the community that much more than we've had in the past. Personally, any time I see these types of unbag periods, I've had a great time asking the team about their event and how it helped them, and the students have loved talking about it. It's not about shenanigans - it's about the mission of FIRST.

[Pault]

Originally Posted by fox46

I think this new rule with respect to demonstrations violates FIRST's own "third party observer" rule. How would you explain it to your grandmother that you can't keep working on or testing the robot because it's beyond "stop build day" and in its bag...... Then you turn around and unbag it to drive it around. I miss the days when a FedEx truck would show up and take the robot away from you. Much less chance for teams to pull post-stop-build-day shenanigans.

Seems like FIRST is getting easier and easier every year. All you really need to do this year is pick-up and throw a ball- half of the robot pictures I've seen on CD here look identical. The only real part of the robot being built anymore is the frame which holds all the COTS items together and even those can be purchased "off the shelf". (Veterans- remember trying to mount drill motors? Or having a 20000RPM motor with no clue how to use it?) Between the number of COTS items available from awesome vendors like AM and VEX, three different groups posting videos and instructions within the 1st week on "how to build your aerial ascent robot", the ever-increasing withholding allowances, being allowed to unbag in order to drive your machine around... Yes it is his 10th demonstration this week but no no grandma- I assure you our driver isn't getting any experience. Anyone know where to get more lockup tags?

I know right! This is going to make things so much more unfair. What if one team likes to gain more recognition for STEM than all the others, does that mean they have a right to get more driver practice? I guaruntee you that all the teams that do this are just going to abuse it to get in like 2 more hours of drive time, because they aren't graciously professional. Now I'm going to have less of a shot a winning, because I try to do things the right way...

Oh wait. It's not about winning. Oops.

[fox46]

I should have known this would spin off into a "who art more gracious than thou" debate. Face the facts- there are individuals in FIRST who do not follow the rules or intend to bend them to their advantage. People like us who abide by them cannot implicitly expect everyone else to. If so, then why even have a bag? Why not just agree that everyone will stop work on a specific day? The fact is that not everyone is 100% honest, gracious and rule/law abiding. If you debate this then you are in for some serious disappointment later in life outside the protection of the FIRST community.

Oh wait. It's not about winning. Oops.

I've been involved for well over a decade in FIRST and have yet to win a regional. You think you need to tell me this?

It is however, about preparing students for their futures and lives. I can assure you that as a high school student struggling to get a drill motor to power a wheel I learned a lot more than one would when they are given a kit chassis. It taught me about every facet of machine design. The environment in which we are currently operating is breeding a flock of catalogue engineers who are completely dumbfounded when their solution doesn't exist on a website. You cannot deny that it squelches innovation - why would a team build a multi-speed gearbox when they can buy one off the shelf? (This of course is not a generalized statement- obviously).

With respect to the liberties with stop-build-day, you remove some of the challenge of the entire process. No longer is there a brick wall at the end of build season. This is very unlike the real world! It is no longer representative of if a company misses a delivery date they lose the contract. Instead teams could entirely legally continue building all the way up until their competition, disassemble their robot and walk in with a 45lb frame and pre-cut wires and assemble their entire machine. Why even have a stop build day?

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by fox46

I should have known this would spin off into a "who art more gracious than thou" debate. Face the facts- there are individuals in FIRST who do not follow the rules or intend to bend them to their advantage. People like us who abide by them cannot implicitly expect everyone else to. If so, then why even have a bag? Why not just agree that everyone will stop work on a specific day? The fact is that not everyone is 100% honest, gracious and rule/law abiding. If you debate this then you are in for some serious disappointment later in life outside the protection of the FIRST community.



I've been involved for well over a decade in FIRST and have yet to win a regional. You think you need to tell me this?

It is however, about preparing students for their futures and lives. I can assure you that as a high school student struggling to get a drill motor to power a wheel I learned a lot more than one would when they are given a kit chassis. It taught me about every facet of machine design. The environment in which we are currently operating is breeding a flock of catalogue engineers who are completely dumbfounded when their solution doesn't exist on a website. You cannot deny that it squelches innovation - why would a team build a multi-speed gearbox when they can buy one off the shelf? (This of course is not a generalized statement- obviously).

With respect to the liberties with stop-build-day, you remove some of the challenge of the entire process. No longer is there a brick wall at the end of build season. This is very unlike the real world! It is no longer representative of if a company misses a delivery date they lose the contract. Instead teams could entirely legally continue building all the way up until their competition, disassemble their robot and walk in with a 45lb frame and pre-cut wires and assemble their entire machine. Why even have a stop build day?

I agree that FIRST is going too far here, but you're overreaching, a lot. This isn't the "real world", it's not even college! This is high school, and for many of these students (hopefully...), it's their first exposure to engineering in general. It's great that you and your teams of old managed to get over the hump and put out good robots. Not all teams do, and there's certainly a lot more to learn beyond that hump after assistance is given.

[wireties]

Originally Posted by bduddy

This isn't the "real world", it's not even college! This is high school, and for many of these students (hopefully...), it's their first exposure to engineering in general.

With respect FIRST may not be the "real world" but it is certainly intended to mimic the "real world". And in the "real world" a solution that is over budget and/or over schedule (and not forecasted as such) is unacceptable. I know this is less true in high school but it is very true in college. The professors could care less if you show up and meet their schedules or not. They just take your money and fail you - the "real world" is coming soon for FIRST students, might as well get a taste of it now.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

To start with, I agree with some of your sentiments regarding the 6 1/2 week build schedule and the withholding allowance (I hope for a year with 0 LBS withholding). That said:

Originally Posted by fox46

I should have known this would spin off into a "who art more gracious than thou" debate. Face the facts- there are individuals in FIRST who do not follow the rules or intend to bend them to their advantage. People like us who abide by them cannot implicitly expect everyone else to. If so, then why even have a bag? Why not just agree that everyone will stop work on a specific day? The fact is that not everyone is 100% honest, gracious and rule/law abiding. If you debate this then you are in for some serious disappointment later in life outside the protection of the FIRST community.

1> Gracious professionalism should be a look inward not a measurement outward. It is not for me, or anyone else, to say whether another has been gracious and professional.
2> What difference does it make what other people or teams do? What difference does it make to you and your team if they are not 100% honest. Remember, this is NOT about winning a competition, it's about inspiring others and winning the game of life.

Originally Posted by fox46

I've been involved for well over a decade in FIRST and have yet to win a regional. You think you need to tell me this?

This is my 13th season, and I have won a regional. Are you trying to say something about me being (or not being) Gracious and professional?

Originally Posted by fox46

It is however, about preparing students for their futures and lives. I can assure you that as a high school student struggling to get a drill motor to power a wheel I learned a lot more than one would when they are given a kit chassis. It taught me about every facet of machine design. The environment in which we are currently operating is breeding a flock of catalogue engineers who are completely dumbfounded when their solution doesn't exist on a website. You cannot deny that it squelches innovation - why would a team build a multi-speed gearbox when they can buy one off the shelf? (This of course is not a generalized statement- obviously).

Perhaps we should go back to the PIC processors from IFI or, better yet, tether our robots because we don't want Wi-Fi.

Yes, some things are easier. All that means is that we can (should) do more. This years game is both easier and far more difficult than previous years. If designing a multi-speed gearbox gives me a significant advantage then, yes, I should design and build my own ... if it gives little to no advantage then why reinvent the wheel. Wasting valuable time/resources is NOT good engineering.

I do disagree that it squelches innovation. Innovation, many times, is putting a new twist on existing technology. Most real innovation did not start with a blank sheet of paper.

Originally Posted by fox46

With respect to the liberties with stop-build-day, you remove some of the challenge of the entire process. No longer is there a brick wall at the end of build season. This is very unlike the real world! It is no longer representative of if a company misses a delivery date they lose the contract. Instead teams could entirely legally continue building all the way up until their competition, disassemble their robot and walk in with a 45lb frame and pre-cut wires and assemble their entire machine. Why even have a stop build day?

The process is not about the challenge. The challenge is about inspiring.

... I also disagree that this does not mimic, at least in part, real world. Design iteration, even after the product has hit the market, happens all the time and any company that stops innovating/iterating their designs will soon find itself out of the marketplace.

JM(NS)HO

[Pault]

Originally Posted by fox46

I should have known this would spin off into a "who art more gracious than thou" debate. Face the facts- there are individuals in FIRST who do not follow the rules or intend to bend them to their advantage. People like us who abide by them cannot implicitly expect everyone else to. If so, then why even have a bag? Why not just agree that everyone will stop work on a specific day? The fact is that not everyone is 100% honest, gracious and rule/law abiding. If you debate this then you are in for some serious disappointment later in life outside the protection of the FIRST community.



I've been involved for well over a decade in FIRST and have yet to win a regional. You think you need to tell me this?

It is however, about preparing students for their futures and lives. I can assure you that as a high school student struggling to get a drill motor to power a wheel I learned a lot more than one would when they are given a kit chassis. It taught me about every facet of machine design. The environment in which we are currently operating is breeding a flock of catalogue engineers who are completely dumbfounded when their solution doesn't exist on a website. You cannot deny that it squelches innovation - why would a team build a multi-speed gearbox when they can buy one off the shelf? (This of course is not a generalized statement- obviously).

With respect to the liberties with stop-build-day, you remove some of the challenge of the entire process. No longer is there a brick wall at the end of build season. This is very unlike the real world! It is no longer representative of if a company misses a delivery date they lose the contract. Instead teams could entirely legally continue building all the way up until their competition, disassemble their robot and walk in with a 45lb frame and pre-cut wires and assemble their entire machine. Why even have a stop build day?

I wrote out a long response to this, but I'm not going to post it because it is too off topic.

However, my original post wasn't adressing your comments about COTs parts or the witholding allowance. It was adressing your comments about out of the bag time for demos. If these demos are done appropriately, which I believe they will be most of the time, then that isn't really hurting the integrity of the deadline (if you insist that the integrity of the deadline is important). Its just making it easier for teams to achieve FIRST's goals. Teams gain no advantage by showing off their robot for a little bit, as long as they follow FIRSTs guidelines. But I will admit that there will be some teams that use this as an oppurtunity to practice while demoing. However, why should we care? If those teams want to do that, then let them. They are only hurting themselves. The only reason that anybody else needs to care is that it makes things unfair. But like I said, fairness only matters if you care about winning.

But I do want to apologize. My post was very rash, and somewhat disrespectful. I just get very passionate when people start accusing other teams of not teaching their students enough, and that is basically what I see you doing. I do have some personal reasons for being this passionate, but those aren't an excuse. So I'm sorry.

[Ian Curtis]

Originally Posted by fox46

Why even have a stop build day?

The more serious question that was discussed at some length last year. If we're going to keep making the build season rules less stringent (+15 lb withholding, unbagging allowed for demos, etc), why do we have a stop build day? And would it be better if we didn't?

My thoughts are somewhat biased since I've missed 1/3 of the build season on work travel.

[cadandcookies]

At some point there has to be trust-- and I for one am willing to trust the majority of teams to not abuse the bag and tag system or robot displays. If I wasn't, I probably wouldn't be sticking around in FIRST.

Also, I'm tired of the "FIRST is a simulation of the real world"-- it isn't. If the real world was like FIRST, there wouldn't be any need for this organization.

[Gregor]

Originally Posted by fox46

Seems like FIRST is getting easier and easier every year.

I don't think so, seeing as the name of the game seems difficult enough.

Originally Posted by fox46

aerial ascent

[fox46]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

This is my 13th season, and I have won a regional. Are you trying to say something about me being (or not being) Gracious and professional?

JM(NS)HO

Daniel, please re-read my post and the quotation which it cites. This statement had nothing to do with you.

What difference does it make what other people or teams do? What difference does it make to you and your team if they are not 100% honest.

It quite frankly devalues the experience. It cheapens the result. If the playing field is not level, the hard work performed by one team is not transferrable or equitable to that performed by another. The teams that work hard are no longer rewarded accordingly in their performance.

Why do the Olympics have drug testing?

The FIRST teachings to be gracious to your opponents is wonderful. I wish our world adopted this thinking far more however, you cannot negate the underlying purpose of building a good robot... it's called FIRST Robotics *COMPETITION*. Competition is what drives our innovation. You look at any of the modern technology we have today and none of it would have existed without competition- world wars, cold wars, space race, apple vs Microsoft, capitalism. It isn't pretty and it involves some deplorable events in human history but you cannot say that "winning doesn't matter". It is a statement that paves the moral high-ground and to claim it is to be blind to the reality all around you. If we teach kids that "winning doesn't matter" and being the best isn't valuable then what sort of a future are we setting up? What drives innovation if not to improve? What is the purpose of competition?

I postulate that if you took the competition out of FIRST- took "winning" out of FIRST, gracious professionalism would not be what it is. There would be no accolade for bowing to your opponents and working together. There would be nothing special about it without anything tempting you to gain by not practicing it. http://www.usfirst.org/aboutus/gracious-professionalism

Recently, in the men's cross-country sprint, Canadian coach Justin Wadsworth rushed out onto the course and replaced the ski of Russian competitor Antov Gafarov. This was a true act of gracious professionalism. But lets say that they weren't from different countries, in competition with each other. Had they both been from the Russian ski team would you call it gracious professionalism? No- it would be called doing your job. Winning may not matter but it's a nice reward for your hard work. http://globalnews.ca/news/1141984/wa...ro-after-fall/

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by fox46

It quite frankly devalues the experience. It cheapens the result. If the playing field is not level, the hard work performed by one team is not transferrable or equitable to that performed by another. The teams that work hard are no longer rewarded accordingly in their performance.

Why do the Olympics have drug testing?

The FIRST teachings to be gracious to your opponents is wonderful. I wish our world adopted this thinking far more however, you cannot negate the underlying purpose of building a good robot... it's called FIRST Robotics *COMPETITION*. Competition is what drives our innovation. You look at any of the modern technology we have today and none of it would have existed without competition- world wars, cold wars, space race, apple vs Microsoft, capitalism. It isn't pretty and it involves some deplorable events in human history but you cannot say that "winning doesn't matter". It is a statement that paves the moral high-ground and to claim it is to be blind to the reality all around you. If we teach kids that "winning doesn't matter" and being the best isn't valuable then what sort of a future are we setting up? What drives innovation if not to improve? What is the purpose of competition?

I postulate that if you took the competition out of FIRST- took "winning" out of FIRST, gracious professionalism would not be what it is. There would be no accolade for bowing to your opponents and working together. There would be nothing special about it without anything tempting you to gain by not practicing it. http://www.usfirst.org/aboutus/gracious-professionalism

Recently, in the men's cross-country sprint, Canadian coach Justin Wadsworth rushed out onto the course and replaced the ski of Russian competitor Antov Gafarov. This was a true act of gracious professionalism. But lets say that they weren't from different countries, in competition with each other. Had they both been from the Russian ski team would you call it gracious professionalism? No- it would be called doing your job. Winning may not matter but it's a nice reward for your hard work. http://globalnews.ca/news/1141984/wa...ro-after-fall/

I try and avoid throwaway posts like this one, but I feel this needs to be stated: This is the best post I've read this entire season. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.