Go to Post That inspector needs their hard drive wiped and the common sense upgraded from version dingbat 1.0. - Andy Baker [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > Technical > Electrical
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Closed Thread
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-02-2014, 18:02
HerbertTreff's Avatar
HerbertTreff HerbertTreff is offline
Build Director
FRC #1802 (Team Stealth)
Team Role: Leadership
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Kansas City, Kansas
Posts: 12
HerbertTreff is an unknown quantity at this point
Is it Legal to Solder the power cord to the D-Link

My team was having problems with our D-Link randomly resetting. after may our of inspecting all of the wiring we determined that the problem was that the power cable to the D-Link was just slightly falling out, so naturally i duck-taped the Ba-Jesus out of it but every so often the D-Link would still reset.

So we were wondering if it would be legal to actually solder the power cables to the interior electronics of the D-Link?

If not, is there any way to make sure it will never falls out?
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-02-2014, 18:54
AllenGregoryIV's Avatar
AllenGregoryIV AllenGregoryIV is offline
Engineering Coach
AKA: Allen "JAG" Gregory
FRC #3847 (Spectrum)
Team Role: Coach
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,569
AllenGregoryIV has a reputation beyond reputeAllenGregoryIV has a reputation beyond reputeAllenGregoryIV has a reputation beyond reputeAllenGregoryIV has a reputation beyond reputeAllenGregoryIV has a reputation beyond reputeAllenGregoryIV has a reputation beyond reputeAllenGregoryIV has a reputation beyond reputeAllenGregoryIV has a reputation beyond reputeAllenGregoryIV has a reputation beyond reputeAllenGregoryIV has a reputation beyond reputeAllenGregoryIV has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to AllenGregoryIV
Re: Is it Legal to Solder the power cord to the D-Link

You can't solder it that would be modifying the electronics.

Quote:
R64
The Driver Station software, cRIO, Power Distribution Board, Digital Sidecars, Analog Breakouts, Solenoid Breakouts, RSL, 120A breaker, motor controllers, relay modules, Wireless Bridge, 12VDC-5VDC converter, and batteries shall not be tampered with, modified, or adjusted in any way (tampering includes drilling, cutting, machining, gluing, rewiring, disassembling, etc.), with the following exceptions.
We normally just wrap a ziptie all the way around it.
__________________

Team 647 | Cyber Wolf Corps | Alumni | 2003-2006 | Shoemaker HS
Team 2587 | DiscoBots | Mentor | 2008-2011 | Rice University / Houston Food Bank
Team 3847 | Spectrum | Coach | 2012-20... | St Agnes Academy
LRI | Alamo Regional | 2014-20...
"Competition has been shown to be useful up to a certain point and no further, but cooperation, which is the thing we must strive for today, begins where competition leaves off." - Franklin D. Roosevelt
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-02-2014, 19:06
tStano tStano is offline
Registered User
AKA: Sparks
no team
Team Role: Electrical
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Rookie Year: 2012
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 177
tStano will become famous soon enough
Re: Is it Legal to Solder the power cord to the D-Link

We had this problem last year and we ziptied and duct-taped the crap out of it. It was mostly effective.
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-02-2014, 19:09
Toa Circuit's Avatar
Toa Circuit Toa Circuit is offline
Thaddeus Maximus
AKA: Thad Hughes
FRC #4213 (MetalCow Robotics)
Team Role: Leadership
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Rookie Year: 2012
Location: Shirley, IL
Posts: 131
Toa Circuit is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Is it Legal to Solder the power cord to the D-Link

I believe one of the exceptions is repair- could you open the thing (or maybe you don't need to), add solder to the plug(s), so they would have a good connection (Like they should- you would still be able to pull the plug out)? That would be allowed by the rules and would work better.
__________________

2012 Head of Programming and Electrical
2013-14 Overall Team Captain and Programming Head
2012-14 Mentor of FLL Team Power Surge
2014 Dean's List Finalist
2014 CIR Xerox Creativity Award
Webpage
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-02-2014, 19:13
EricH's Avatar
EricH EricH is online now
New year, new team
FRC #1197 (Torbots)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: SoCal
Posts: 19,824
EricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is it Legal to Solder the power cord to the D-Link

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toa Circuit View Post
I believe one of the exceptions is repair- could you open the thing (or maybe you don't need to), add solder to the plug(s), so they would have a good connection? That would be allowed by the rules and would work better.
Take a better look at "repair".

R65-L requires that the performance and specifications after the repair need to be identical to the ones before repair. Also, see Q293 and response. If, after a repair, the specs are different/better, you might actually have an upgrade, which is not allowed.


I assume you're using one of the cords you got with the router, and not an aftermarket one? And that it's NOT tight/has strain relief?
__________________
Past teams:
2003-2007: FRC0330 BeachBots
2008: FRC1135 Shmoebotics
2012: FRC4046 Schroedinger's Dragons

"Rockets are tricky..."--Elon Musk

  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-02-2014, 20:53
Jarren Harkema's Avatar
Jarren Harkema Jarren Harkema is offline
Dancing Drive Coach
FRC #4967 (That ONE Team)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Rookie Year: 2013
Location: Michigan
Posts: 167
Jarren Harkema is a name known to allJarren Harkema is a name known to allJarren Harkema is a name known to allJarren Harkema is a name known to allJarren Harkema is a name known to allJarren Harkema is a name known to all
Re: Is it Legal to Solder the power cord to the D-Link

Have you checked other possible reasons it would be resetting? Does it only happen when certain actions happen? We were having this issue today. We think it was because our DC converter was not isolated. Added some insulation and sure enough the radio isn't reseting anymore.
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-02-2014, 23:18
Joe Ross's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
Joe Ross Joe Ross is offline
Registered User
FRC #0330 (Beachbots)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1997
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 8,599
Joe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is it Legal to Solder the power cord to the D-Link

Are you using the original power connector that came with the radio, or another connector?
  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-02-2014, 23:25
tgross35 tgross35 is offline
Registered User
FRC #4810 (I Am Robot)
Team Role: Electrical
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Rookie Year: 2012
Location: Michigan
Posts: 23
tgross35 is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Is it Legal to Solder the power cord to the D-Link

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricH View Post
Take a better look at "repair".

R65-L requires that the performance and specifications after the repair need to be identical to the ones before repair. Also, see Q293 and response. If, after a repair, the specs are different/better, you might actually have an upgrade, which is not allowed.


I assume you're using one of the cords you got with the router, and not an aftermarket one? And that it's NOT tight/has strain relief?
I was sort of thinking the same thing, but I don't think that the "performance" is actually improved at all. It would just be able to preform correctly more often. I honestly don't think that anybody in the First community would have an issue with this, especially since there is nothing dangerous that could result (assuming you solder correctly and don't short out the connector.)
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-02-2014, 23:34
kgzak's Avatar
kgzak kgzak is online now
Registered User
AKA: Kris
FRC #4392 (Decievers) FRC #2075 (Enigma)
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan
Posts: 418
kgzak is a splendid one to beholdkgzak is a splendid one to beholdkgzak is a splendid one to beholdkgzak is a splendid one to beholdkgzak is a splendid one to beholdkgzak is a splendid one to beholdkgzak is a splendid one to behold
Re: Is it Legal to Solder the power cord to the D-Link

One major problem I see with opening the radio and soldering to it is, how are you going to have you radio flashed when you are at the competition. They need to be able to power and flash the radio for you to communicate with the field. That and it is modification of electronics, and therefore not allowed by rules.
  #10   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 16-02-2014, 00:08
tgross35 tgross35 is offline
Registered User
FRC #4810 (I Am Robot)
Team Role: Electrical
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Rookie Year: 2012
Location: Michigan
Posts: 23
tgross35 is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Is it Legal to Solder the power cord to the D-Link

Quote:
Originally Posted by kgzak View Post
One major problem I see with opening the radio and soldering to it is, how are you going to have you radio flashed when you are at the competition. They need to be able to power and flash the radio for you to communicate with the field. That and it is modification of electronics, and therefore not allowed by rules.
I see that I had read the question wrong now. I was thinking that they were just planning on adding a dab of solder to the connector so it's a bit larger and more snug, but in this case, I agree that soldering to the dlink's electronics would probably cause a few more issues.
  #11   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 16-02-2014, 00:59
philso philso is offline
Mentor
FRC #2587
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Rookie Year: 2011
Location: Houston, Tx
Posts: 940
philso has a reputation beyond reputephilso has a reputation beyond reputephilso has a reputation beyond reputephilso has a reputation beyond reputephilso has a reputation beyond reputephilso has a reputation beyond reputephilso has a reputation beyond reputephilso has a reputation beyond reputephilso has a reputation beyond reputephilso has a reputation beyond reputephilso has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is it Legal to Solder the power cord to the D-Link

Quote:
Originally Posted by HerbertTreff View Post
So we were wondering if it would be legal to actually solder the power cables to the interior electronics of the D-Link?

If not, is there any way to make sure it will never falls out?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toa Circuit View Post
I believe one of the exceptions is repair- could you open the thing (or maybe you don't need to), add solder to the plug(s), so they would have a good connection (Like they should- you would still be able to pull the plug out)? That would be allowed by the rules and would work better.

I would strongly discourage opening the router. In addition to what you are proposing to do being against the rules, it is likely that you deform the antennas and mess up the reception. The antennas are made from pieces of thin sheet metal formed into 3D shapes that are rather delicate. Last year, a team member did exactly what you are proposing and bent the antennas. I did not have a way to determine how much that affected the signal strengths but from working with a bunch of RF engineers in the past, I know that the shape of the antennas are pretty critical to the performance of the radio.
  #12   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 16-02-2014, 08:41
MrRoboSteve MrRoboSteve is offline
Mentor
AKA: Steve Peterson
FRC #3081 (Kennedy RoboEagles)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Rookie Year: 2011
Location: Bloomington, MN
Posts: 582
MrRoboSteve has a reputation beyond reputeMrRoboSteve has a reputation beyond reputeMrRoboSteve has a reputation beyond reputeMrRoboSteve has a reputation beyond reputeMrRoboSteve has a reputation beyond reputeMrRoboSteve has a reputation beyond reputeMrRoboSteve has a reputation beyond reputeMrRoboSteve has a reputation beyond reputeMrRoboSteve has a reputation beyond reputeMrRoboSteve has a reputation beyond reputeMrRoboSteve has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is it Legal to Solder the power cord to the D-Link

If it takes >1 piece of electrical tape to hold the dlink cord in the connector, you should look at some upstream strain relief on the wire to reduce motion at the point of connection.
__________________
2016-17 events: 10000 Lakes Regional, Northern Lights Regional, FTC Burnsville Qualifying Tournament

2011 - present · FRC 3081 Kennedy RoboEagles mentor
2013 - present · event volunteer at 10000 Lakes Regional, Northern Lights Regional, North Star Regional, Lake Superior Regional, Minnesota State Tournament, PNW District 4 Glacier Peak, MN FTC, CMP
http://twitter.com/MrRoboSteve · www.linkedin.com/in/speterson
  #13   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 16-02-2014, 08:43
Unsung FIRST Hero
Al Skierkiewicz Al Skierkiewicz is offline
Broadcast Eng/Chief Robot Inspector
AKA: Big Al WFFA 2005
FRC #0111 (WildStang)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1996
Location: Wheeling, IL
Posts: 10,798
Al Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is it Legal to Solder the power cord to the D-Link

There are two pretty common issues here. If you did not use the connector that came on the power supply to power the radio, you may have the wrong size connector. These come in a variety of sizes for both the outer diameter and the inner pin size. While it looks right and it may even work most of the time, vibration will show that the inner pin is the wrong diameter.
If this is not a new radio, it is possible that you have broken the solder connection on the board. The result is the same as above. You can open the radio and repair this connection if you have soldered components on a circuit board before. As mentioned above, the antennas which are located along each side, are delicate and should not be touched. If you open the case, you will be able to determine if the connection is broken by wiggling the power connector. If it moves, it most certainly has broken the solder connection.
__________________
Good Luck All. Learn something new, everyday!
Al
WB9UVJ
www.wildstang.org
________________________
Storming the Tower since 1996.
  #14   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 16-02-2014, 09:44
StealthMentor StealthMentor is offline
Registered User
FRC #1802
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 16
StealthMentor is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Is it Legal to Solder the power cord to the D-Link

It is the new radio for this year, we are using the included connector, it has done this since the first time we powered it up. One strip of electrical tape helped, but it would still happen. A lot of duck tape helped more, but it would still happen every once in a while. I am thinking that the solder connections were bad out of the box.

I am thinking about swapping it out for last years and see if the problem still occurs. I saw someone post about isolating the power converter, ours is attached to the frame, we assumed that since it was a big heat sink this would help keep it cool. Is isolating this from the frame really necessary? I did not see this in the rules. We might give it a shot anyway to see if it helps.

Thanks!
  #15   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 16-02-2014, 12:23
Jarren Harkema's Avatar
Jarren Harkema Jarren Harkema is offline
Dancing Drive Coach
FRC #4967 (That ONE Team)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Rookie Year: 2013
Location: Michigan
Posts: 167
Jarren Harkema is a name known to allJarren Harkema is a name known to allJarren Harkema is a name known to allJarren Harkema is a name known to allJarren Harkema is a name known to allJarren Harkema is a name known to all
Re: Is it Legal to Solder the power cord to the D-Link

Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthMentor View Post
It is the new radio for this year, we are using the included connector, it has done this since the first time we powered it up. One strip of electrical tape helped, but it would still happen. A lot of duck tape helped more, but it would still happen every once in a while. I am thinking that the solder connections were bad out of the box.

I am thinking about swapping it out for last years and see if the problem still occurs. I saw someone post about isolating the power converter, ours is attached to the frame, we assumed that since it was a big heat sink this would help keep it cool. Is isolating this from the frame really necessary? I did not see this in the rules. We might give it a shot anyway to see if it helps.

Thanks!
I only suggested isolation because it turns out to work for us. The radio reset every time we slammed into something or changed directions fast. We figured it had something to do with the converter, as the radio was secured and the DC converter was firmly wired to the PDB. It must have had something to do with the sudden change in power,

Sorry I don't have any solid evidence as to why this would work, or the full reasoning behind it. I just know it works for us.
Closed Thread


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 19:18.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi