Made in America

[TheOtherGuy]

Originally Posted by JackS

I'm going to stop you right here. This statement shows a remarkable lack of understanding about the basic principles of economics, specifically regarding international trade. Trading with other countries HAS NO EFFECT on the number of jobs in the US economy. The unemployment rate is controlled entirely by macroeconomic policies set by Congress and the Federal Reserve.

I can't imagine outsourcing having absolutely no effect on the unemployment rate here. If I fire someone and outsource their work to a foreign entity, I've affected the number of unemployed people here. Internal purchases keep money in the US economy; outsourcing does not.

Caveat: Not an economics major. But neither is anyone else in this thread.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by TheOtherGuy

economics major. But neither is anyone else in this thread.

You don't know that....

[dag0620]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

FIRST was not always an "international organization." It took several years before there were any Canadian teams, and a few more before Brazillians joined the party. FIRST did not have an event outside of North America until the pilot Israel regional in 2005. The organization was originally called US FIRST, and had a more US-centric goal. It used the name "US FIRST" on its literature until at least 1997. There's still a reason you will hear comments about the US' ranking in the world at many FIRST events. While the mission of FIRST is international now, there is some validity in the history of the organization.

To add to that with a little nuget of trivia, while FIRST has been using FIRST as it's DBA name for a long time now, the legal name of the entity is still The United States Foundation For The Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology. While it's focus has obviously shifted from just the US to international outreach, due to the legal name once and a while you will still see US FIRST on things.

[PandaHatMan]

Keep it simple. The more rules and stipulations you put on robots, the less appealing FIRST becomes. 90% of the rules are for safety. The other 10% is for fairness and making sure the game is played correctly. If you and your team feel inclined to make sure all of the components of your robot originate in America, by all means, make it so. Other teams just don't have the money or resources to make an 'American' robot.

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by Whippet

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

-Carl Sagan

Of course, the claim you're replying to is even more extraordinary and shows an even deeper lack of understanding of economics. Like most things worth discussing, the economy is affected by a huge number of factors; politics and outsourcing are two of them. But that's not the point...

The point is, this proposal is silly and there's a reason USFIRST has distanced itself from the "US" part.

[Tristan Lall]

I thank the original poster for engaging in this line of discussion, because the opportunity to discuss issues like this one is a valuable way to connect technology to broader issues of policy and politics.

Nevertheless, prior to reading the original post, I didn't realize that there could be such a simple and elegant way to ensure the end of my participation in the program.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by noceradave

One of the urgent reasons education needs to be involved with programs like First robotics is to raise the technology literacy of American students and help them thrive in technology careers in this globalized technology centric economy. Because of outsourcing, students face a real threat that they will graduate colleges and not find jobs . It is disappointing to see what percentage of components used on our robots are imported.

Should First create a new rule that technology used on robots needs to be "made in America"?

Lemme guess, you're one of those guys that thinks we should only buy American cars too?


But I'll humor you, tell me how STEM jobs (which are what we are trying to encourage students to go into) are impacted by the outsourcing of manufacturing jobs?

I'd be willing to entertain the argument that software jobs are at risk. But I'll also tell you (from first hand experience) that there are certain jobs that cannot be outsourced for a variety of reasons. Furthermore, recent articles I've seen have alluded to software jobs coming back from India for a variety of reasons.

So, in short, I firmly believe that outsourcing is a specter that people like to point to to instill fear in us and get us to buy American. If I can get the same job done drastically cheaper overseas good for me.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by JackS

The unemployment rate is controlled entirely by macroeconomic policies set by Congress and the Federal Reserve.

There was a point someone made in this thread about economic policy that applies to this statement. It's below.

Originally Posted by JackS

Please, please, please do some research about economics before making extraordinary claims like this.

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

But I'll humor you, tell me how STEM jobs (which are what we are trying to encourage students to go into) are impacted by the outsourcing of manufacturing jobs?

With every manufacturing facility come the STEM jobs of the upkeep and oversight of that facility. Modern manufacturing typically requires technicians and process engineers.

[EricDrost]

Why? Ignoring the obvious international teams argument, why does a product need to be manufactured in USA?

A manufacturing job in China[or insert other nationality] is one of the first occupations for the masses to earn a living outside of subsistence farming. Additionally, it doesn't make as much sense to manufacture parts for big US companies in the US. It would not be possible for Apple to grow to its current size with US manufacturing. Are you saying that you would rather they built a small brand with maybe 10,000 US manufacturing jobs at the cost of building a large brand with 200,000 US engineering, management, retail, and transportation jobs? In addition to the international manufacturing jobs that give people globally an option that isn't laboring a field for food?

Millions of people in the US are employed by foreign companies. This is a global world. Graduates of FIRST will own or work for companies that purchase from and sell to most countries in this world. If anything, there needs to be a bigger focus on where parts are sourced internationally because it will give them a clearer understanding of where the advantages and disadvantages of outsourcing parts lie.

[Wayne TenBrink]

Originally Posted by rsisk

How about we make parts in America that are so amazing that everyone will want to buy them.

I don't know if current trends in FRC are helping with that. With the growth of FRC-specific component/assembly suppliers and the advent of Ri3D builds, FRC is becoming more about shopping around for existing stuff and less about creating it yourself. That's not all bad, but not all good either. Some outdated rules (IMHO) on "fabricated" vs. "COTS" items encourage this.

Perhaps someday we will have the "IF IT LOOKS LIKE WORK FARM IT OUT AWARD sponsored by Manpower Associates", or (for the robot with the most "Made in China" content) the "CHAIRMAN MAO'S AWARD".

I do not support a "Made in America" rule for FRC, but I do support policies that encourage teams to design and build more of their own stuff. I think that will inspire the development of talented and experienced problem solvers who will improve life for Americans and everybody else.

[Ian Curtis]

Originally Posted by Wayne TenBrink

I do not support a "Made in America" rule for FRC, but I do support policies that encourage teams to design and build more of their own stuff. I think that will inspire the development of talented and experienced problem solvers who will improve life for Americans and everybody else.

+1. I don't design any manufactured parts at my day job, but the lessons I learned designing and then having to build a real thing as an FRC students were invaluable.

I love it when the CAD kids make an awful drawing, and then have to go manufacture the part. It is a much more effective lesson than someone else telling them to redo it.

"The country's success since that perilous time [1942] boggles the mind. On an inflation adjusted basis, GDP per capita more than quadrupled between 1941 and 2012. Throughout that period, every tomorrow has been uncertain. America's destiny however, has always been clear: ever-increasing abundance." -Warren Buffet, 2012 Letter to Shareholders

I will continue to purchase the best stuff available from Mr. Market.

[JackS]

Originally Posted by TheOtherGuy

I can't imagine outsourcing having absolutely no effect on the unemployment rate here. If I fire someone and outsource their work to a foreign entity, I've affected the number of unemployed people here. Internal purchases keep money in the US economy; outsourcing does not.

Caveat: Not an economics major. But neither is anyone else in this thread.

Sigh... Ok, this will be watered down and not technically correct, but it'll get the point across. Imagine an economy where only two countries exist, the US and China, and each is operating under autarky (no trade/outsourcing at all.) Now someone in the US decides to have Good A made in China because it was cheaper. The Chinese worker produces Good A at instead of producing Good B. However, China still demands that Good B is produced. China doesn't have any option other than to have Good B produced in the US, so the person fired from producing Good A is now hired to produce Good B. Thus there is no change in the number of people employed.

Obviously we've made a lot of assumptions (perfect competition, no transport costs, homogenous workers, only two countries, etc.) But, it turns out that you can relax many of these assumptions and the model still works.

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

There was a point someone made in this thread about economic policy that applies to this statement. It's below.

I got a bit carried away, see edited version.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Am I missing something, my robot is made in America, isn't it?

[fox46]

I challenge you to give me an example of a FIRST component or part that is entirely made in the USA...

Andymark, VEX and nearly all other suppliers although they may say their product is made in the USA, the bearings, fasteners, gears, shafts-- component parts etc nearly always come from offshore. It is the only way for them to offer products that we can or are willing to pay for.

The reality of the world today is that we live in a global economy.

For those of you "buy domestic" types, you may need to rethink your choice of automobile. http://www.caranddriver.com/features...merica-feature

[ronlottem]

its enogh that as a team from israel we need to wait for about a week to get staff we buy from andymark, i dont think its fair if basic equipment we want to use will arrive to us a week after we actually thought of using it.