Why do we bother bagging?

[Lil' Lavery]

I'm a little alarmed at the hostility at which people are treating the minority opinion on some of these issues. Just because an opinion is not popular on Chief Delphi doesn't mean a large portion of FRC competitors feel that way. It's more important to understand why they feel that way than it is to attempt to convince they're wrong through vigorous debate. I don't mean to squelch the debate on this topic, but try to be more empathetic.

[Racer26]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

I'm a little alarmed at the hostility at which people are treating the minority opinion on some of these issues. Just because an opinion is not popular on Chief Delphi doesn't mean a large portion of FRC competitors feel that way. It's more important to understand why they feel that way than it is to attempt to convince they're wrong through vigorous debate. I don't mean to squelch the debate on this topic, but try to be more empathetic.

<Cue comments about how CD is disproportionately heavy on teams and people that make up those powerhouses>

[Nick Lawrence]

I've been reading this thread since the beginning, and only have one simple thought:

I'd love to only have to build one robot, (and not be at a huge competitive disadvantage,) and spend the money previously allocated for a practice robot on travel for the students to outside regionals, championships, etc.

It's still about the students. I want them to enjoy the benefits of fielding a competitive robot, but I also want them all to see it perform.

-Nick

[cgmv123]

Originally Posted by DMike

Where in the "real World" Do you get to manufacture a part or assembly, deliver that part to your customer and then in a few weeks deliver the one that works?

When the part you ship first is the beta version.

[wireties]

Originally Posted by DMike

Where in the "real World" Do you get to manufacture a part or assembly, deliver that part to your customer and then in a few weeks deliver the one that works?

I'm not sure how I feel about the bagging. We just kinda do what FIRST asks of us. It seemed a natural evolution from shipping the robots everywhere so we could have regionals one week sooner and not press the ceiling on the Fedex sponsorship.

But I have spent much of my career in the "real world" designing and delivering systems (or modifications to systems) in weeks, not months. It is called quick-turn engineering. And sometimes we deliver a sub-functional product if that helps our customer work out any issues and pull their schedule in. Like my signature says "Fast, cheap or working - pick any two" - I spent most of my career in the working fast mode with less regard to cost. It happens.

[JVN]

I suspect... whatever changes are made (or not made) to the system won't significantly change the "gap" between "powerhouse" and "not-powerhouse" teams. I believe the gap will shift, but not to any major extent. 67 will still build a powerhouse robot. 1114 will still be a "Vegas odds" favorite to win their division. 254 will still build a machine which stands above others.

However, I do believe that the overall quality of machines could decrease if we limit things more in a significant way, as some have suggested.
Imagine if FIRST said "don't work after 6-weeks... don't build a practice bot... if you do, you're cheating.":

I suspect teams will attempt lower-performing robots which they know they can finish during the 6-weeks, instead of relying on the 45-lb safety net to catch them if they fail spectacularly.

I suspect more teams will over-reach, and have no means to finish the machines they do attempt. I imagine these teams will fall-back to defensive play as a strategy which requires only driving. We'll have a lot of such teams playing.

I suspect great teams will continue to build great robots, but they won't be as great as they could have been. (If we're only allowed to use plywood, 254 will build a very cool plywood robot... and be very grumpy about it.)

However, I agree that mentors will burn out less. I agree that students will burn out less. I personally, would get more sleep.

My opinion, is that this would be good for individuals, but bad for the program.
I am one of those people who believes that exciting robots, and exciting matches are good for this program. I worry about the impact any of these changes would have on the overall gameplay at the elite level (which, I personally believe is important to the viability of this program).

I watched a bunch of old matches the other day with my students. It is surprising to me how badly these games have aged. Robots are slow and clunky. Things which I remember being incredible now seem ho-hum. I personally wouldn't want to go back to that level of performance.

Everything involves tradeoffs. Everything requires balance. Nothing is black and white. Shifts in one thing will cause other things to also shift; some of these shifts will not be predictable.

-John

[FrankJ]

Originally Posted by Racer26

<Cue comments about how CD is disproportionately heavy on teams and people that make up those powerhouses>

So are they powerhouses because they are on CD or are they on CD because they are powerhouses?

[Steven Donow]

Originally Posted by Nick Lawrence

I've been reading this thread since the beginning, and only have one simple thought:

I'd love to only have to build one robot, (and not be at a huge competitive disadvantage,) and spend the money previously allocated for a practice robot on travel for the students to outside regionals, championships, etc.

It's still about the students. I want them to enjoy the benefits of fielding a competitive robot, but I also want them all to see it perform.

-Nick

This is one of the major benefits of the district system.

[Brandon_L]

Originally Posted by DevenStonow

This is one of the major benefits of the district system.

Seconded

[dodar]

Originally Posted by FrankJ

So are they powerhouses because they are on CD or are they on CD because they are powerhouses?

Yes.

[wireties]

Originally Posted by JVN

I suspect... whatever changes are made (or not made) to the system won't significantly change the "gap" between "powerhouse" and "not-powerhouse" teams. I believe the gap will shift, but not to any major extent. 67 will still build a powerhouse robot. 1114 will still be a "Vegas odds" favorite to win their division. 254 will still build a machine which stands above others.

However, I do believe that the overall quality of machines could decrease if we limit things more in a significant way, as some have suggested.
Imagine if FIRST said "don't work after 6-weeks... don't build a practice bot... if you do, you're cheating.":

I suspect teams will attempt lower-performing robots which they know they can finish during the 6-weeks, instead of relying on the 45-lb safety net to catch them if they fail spectacularly.

I suspect more teams will over-reach, and have no means to finish the machines they do attempt. I imagine these teams will fall-back to defensive play as a strategy which requires only driving. We'll have a lot of such teams playing.

I suspect great teams will continue to build great robots, but they won't be as great as they could have been. (If we're only allowed to use plywood, 254 will build a very cool plywood robot... and be very grumpy about it.)

However, I agree that mentors will burn out less. I agree that students will burn out less. I personally, would get more sleep.

My opinion, is that this would be good for individuals, but bad for the program.
I am one of those people who believes that exciting robots, and exciting matches are good for this program. I worry about the impact any of these changes would have on the overall gameplay at the elite level (which, I personally believe is important to the viability of this program).

I watched a bunch of old matches the other day with my students. It is surprising to me how badly these games have aged. Robots are slow and clunky. Things which I remember being incredible now seem ho-hum. I personally wouldn't want to go back to that level of performance.

Everything involves tradeoffs. Everything requires balance. Nothing is black and white. Shifts in one thing will cause other things to also shift; some of these shifts will not be predictable.
-John

well said - I concur and we are definitely not a "power house" team

[TikiTech]

Howzit!!

As an outer island team we have no other option but to crate our robot. Yes in its' bag..
As a small team with 3 volunteer mentors, burnout is one of the hardest thing to avoid.

This year was especially difficult. We had numerous supply issues. We started ordering aluminum stock as well as drivetrain parts in early December. Just to have it all delayed until the end of January.

When we did finally did get our stock we had the misfortune of our competition frame warping during welding of the upper structures to it. Sadly a student clamped the parts far too hard before he welded it...

Tough learning moment, and as it turns out, we are turning it into a practice shooting bot.
We decided to withhold our shooter system for it. We now have plans to repair the frame and turn it into a tee shirt cannon during the off season. An ideal moment to turn a negative into a positive!

When our transmissions did arrive, they were not complete. VexPro did come through and ship us the missing parts in record time, thankfully.

All these “setbacks” caused us to have to complete our robot in a little less than 3 weeks.

We helped maximize our build time and reduce the “burnout” by working in shifts.

Even so, we are quite spent… Not to mention we have other competition during this time taxing our students as well…

That said.. I think the tag and bag is a good end to the build season. It gives completion to the process.

Yes I would of just rather crated it and ship it off, since we have to do it anyways, but with the bag process it gives us a few days to properly load what is needed in our crate prior to shipping.

The first year or two, for us, the stop build day was a stressful event. Just to get everything tossed in the crate and make the robot fit as fast as possible was crazy.
The bagging process reduces a lot of packing and shipping stress on us and THAT is a good thing.. We get about a week to properly gather the correct spares and tools needed properly crated and safely secure our robot.

I like the idea of district competition but out here it is not feasible yet. There just isn’t enough teams locally. Even if there was, half of us will still need to ship our robot to the venue. If the competition is over multiple weekends that would be costly to do, even if the robot was stored at the venue for the weeks of the competition. The costs for travel and lodging would not make it feasible for most of the teams here. Shipping is the biggest killer to the teams in Hawaii. Everything is either boated, takes a minimum of 11 days from California, or air freighted which is super expensive and still take 3-4 days at best.

If Hawaii was added as a district competition, with all the additional travel and time, it would sure add to the mentor burnout..

Sorry for the long winded post. Good luck to everyone this season,

Aloha!

[DampRobot]

Originally Posted by Mr. Van

It seems that many people are missing the real issues here. It's far, far less about money than it is about two other things.

First the minor one: Space to practice. Yes, I know that some teams perform well having nothing less than a classroom with a low ceiling to practice in, but having space for a full practice field or even a full competition field is a huge advantage. In some places, this real estate is by far the greatest donation a team has. It doesn't make sense to build a practice robot or even have access to your competition robot if you have no space to practice with it.

We just bought a half field of carpet from Home Depot that's reasonably close to field spec for about $300. We just lay it down outside whenever we want to practice, and roll it up and put it back into our shop when were done. Maybe $300 is a lot for other teams, but when you consider all the seasons you'll use the carpet for, it's a really great investment.

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

I'm a little alarmed at the hostility at which people are treating the minority opinion on some of these issues. Just because an opinion is not popular on Chief Delphi doesn't mean a large portion of FRC competitors feel that way. It's more important to understand why they feel that way than it is to attempt to convince they're wrong through vigorous debate. I don't mean to squelch the debate on this topic, but try to be more empathetic.

This too.

Originally Posted by JVN

I suspect great teams will continue to build great robots, but they won't be as great as they could have been. (If we're only allowed to use plywood, 254 will build a very cool plywood robot... and be very grumpy about it.)

I don't know, they seemed to be pretty psyched about Skystalker...

What most people don't understand about powerhouse teams like 254 is that even if you took away all their resources, money, and facilities, they'd still be quite good. It's their insane drive, experience, and belief that nothing is good enough that make them so amazing on the field. If you believe that lots of resources, funds, time and practice robots are all that's necessary to make a winning team, there are tons of great counterexamples, including 100.

Why do we bag? Because it's part of the challenge. I'm not sure that removing bag and tag would result in more competitive robots, but it probably would reduce the cost of being competitive, at least for some teams.

[Gregor]

Originally Posted by DMike

4) Restricting holdback to 20% would prevent teams from major redesign's of major systems. I have seen many "bagged" robots that were not operable, only to go through a complete overhaul.

I'm sorry, you think this is a bad thing?

Originally Posted by DampRobot

We just lay it down outside whenever we want to practice

grumble grumble California sun grumble grumble.

[DampRobot]

Originally Posted by Gregor

grumble grumble California sun grumble grumble.

Hey, it's not all fun and games here in Northern California! We had to wear jackets at the practice field ship weekend. It was almost 55 degrees!