Made in America

[cgmv123]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

Am I missing something, my robot is made in America, isn't it?

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

Am I missing something, my robot is made in America, isn't it?

We actually outsourced ours to Canada since they are CLEARLY superior to us at hockey.

[T^2]

Originally Posted by JackS

Sigh... Ok, this will be watered down and not technically correct, but it'll get the point across. Imagine an economy where only two countries exist, the US and China, and each is operating under autarky (no trade/outsourcing at all.) Now someone in the US decides to have Good A made in China because it was cheaper. The Chinese worker produces Good A at instead of producing Good B. However, China still demands that Good B is produced. China doesn't have any option other than to have Good B produced in the US, so the person fired from producing Good A is now hired to produce Good B. Thus there is no change in the number of people employed.

Obviously we've made a lot of assumptions (perfect competition, no transport costs, homogenous workers, only two countries, etc.) But, it turns out that you can relax many of these assumptions and the model still works.

Thank you for this. It might be helpful for some in this thread to read up on the theory of comparative advantage. In short, it's quite possible for everyone to benefit when some work is outsourced.

[Jonathan Norris]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

We actually outsourced ours to Canada since they are CLEARLY superior to us at hockey.

That's the least controversial post I've seen in this thread...

[DampRobot]

Welcome to 2014, where parts from China are both cheaper and better made.

From talking to various suppliers, it seems like the US is a really poor choice for FRC manufacturing (unless you need super fast turnarounds, and maybe not even then). Chinese manufactures are much cheaper, produce a better product, and seem to want your business a whole lot more than US based manufacturers. Basically, in America, you pay out the nose for each setup, and in China, you're essentially only paying for material, because labor costs are so low. There's a reason a lot of high tech manufacturing still has a significant foothold in the US (such as aerospace and medical manufacturing, where profits are large because of proprietary designs), while large scale, lower profit margin manufacturing (iPhones, etc) is better done in China.

There also seems to be agreement in the business community that this disparity in manufacturing is because of the large number of taxes and regulations in the US. I'll leave whether or not this is a good thing to the amateur politicians here.

[s_forbes]

We bought a metal component from McMaster, I was pleasantly surprised how close to home it originated! You may have to zoom in to see it.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by fox46

Andymark, VEX and nearly all other suppliers although they may say their product is made in the USA, the bearings, fasteners, gears, shafts-- component parts etc nearly always come from offshore. It is the only way for them to offer products that we can or are willing to pay for.

I'm sure Andy can chime in here, but I believe he has specifically said that all his fabricated parts are done in the greater Indiana area. That includes gear hobbing, machining, extrusion, etc.

They might be done from Chinese material, but I think you'd be surprised how much metal that is sold in the US is actually from here.

Additionally most things from McMaster are US manufactured (lots of bearings are probably a notable exception).

Originally Posted by DampRobot

Welcome to 2014, where parts from China are both cheaper and better made.

From talking to various suppliers, it seems like the US is a really poor choice for FRC manufacturing (unless you need super fast turnarounds, and maybe not even then). Chinese manufactures are much cheaper, produce a better product, and seem to want your business a whole lot more than US based manufacturers. Basically, in America, you pay out the nose for each setup, and in China, you're essentially only paying for material, because labor costs are so low. There's a reason a lot of high tech manufacturing still has a significant foothold in the US (such as aerospace and medical manufacturing, where profits are large because of proprietary designs), while large scale, lower profit margin manufacturing (iPhones, etc) is better done in China.

There also seems to be agreement in the business community that this disparity in manufacturing is because of the large number of taxes and regulations in the US. I'll leave whether or not this is a good thing to the amateur politicians here.

There is some amount of work coming back to the US because the gap in wages is starting to close a little bit, combined with the fact that lead times can be longer, customs are an issue, product can be lost to damage during shipping (salt water, etc), it can be difficult to communicate with vendors and make changes, etc.

It's kind of disingenuous to say that China makes better stuff than America. China is obviously good at certain things and not so good at others. I fail to see any instance in which China could produce something that could not be made to the same or better quality standards as in the US. You will pay more for it, but the US (on the whole) is better at quality control and process development.

I try to purchase North American manufactured products whenever possible, assuming they are of equal or better quality and cost competitive.

Excluding products like VEXPro which are of very high quality, the average Chinese product used in FRC (bearings, cutting tools, hand tools, machinery, etc) are somewhere between mediocre and garbage.

[BrendanB]

Originally Posted by Cory

...the average Chinese product used in FRC (bearings, cutting tools, hand tools, machinery, etc) are somewhere between mediocre and garbage.

Amen to this.

FRC teams want things fast, cheap, and typically of high quality. We usually settle with a mix of the three but I don't care who it comes from; I want it ASAP and to last a season.

[mechanical_robot]

Originally Posted by JackS

I'm going to stop you right here. This statement shows a remarkable lack of understanding about the basic principles of economics, specifically regarding international trade. Trading with other countries HAS NO EFFECT on the number of jobs in the US economy. The unemployment rate is controlled mostly* (not entirely) by macroeconomic policies set by Congress and the Federal Reserve.

Please, please, please do some research about economics before making extraordinary claims like this.

Pretty sure when a some chinese factory can produce parts for cheaper then a American factory, then the American factory is going out of business. First the chinese factories don't have to abide by environmental rules that American factories would otherwise have to follow. Then you have the obvious of cheap labor. That's free market/capitalistism for you.

[IKE]

I personally think this "problem" won't last much longer. There have been many countries that have been the "low cost labor" for industry throughout History. USA was one of those not too long ago when you look at time in terms of civilization.
Since the 1900s shipping has allowed for the "low cost labor" to be more global, but in general, the labor supports higher wages which increases cost of living which increase wages which increases prices which... until a new "low cost labor" source becomes advantageous.
China is just the current source, but there have been several others before it. The neat thing is we are quickly running out of potential "low cost" labor markets as countries keep developing.

I am very excited for the day when Africa really gets into the game. We are likely "10 years out"* on this.

*10 years out is the threshold for predictors to make predictions that could be 7-100 years out. If you predict 1-5 years out, someone will remember to kid you about it. 10 years, and you either look like a genious if you are right, or everyone forgets if you are wrong...

[Paul Copioli]

Oh why not, I'll chime in here. Should be fun.

First, Cory's statement here:

It's kind of disingenuous to say that China makes better stuff than America. China is obviously good at certain things and not so good at others. I fail to see any instance in which China could produce something that could not be made to the same or better quality standards as in the US. You will pay more for it, but the US (on the whole) is better at quality control and process development.

While Cory may be correct on the whole, in my experience, during the development of VEXpro we manufactured prototypes in both the US and China. We did extensive sourcing exercises to find US based suppliers for as many components as possible. In every product (note I said every product), the US suppliers could not meet my quality requirements and could not meet my delivery requirements. The FRC community would not have the quality of VEXpro gears or the VersaPlanetary gearboxes if we held ourselves to the "must be made in the USA" mantra.

Also, there is no way VEX would have been able to create the 300 VEXpro parts that teams are now using if we were required to use US manufacturing.

Now, with respect to the whole jobs argument, I can share one of three stories I have regarding the jobs debate.

In 1998, IFI started with two men working out of their garage. Now IFI has over 200 employees worldwide with about 160 of them working here in Greenville, TX. If they decided to use US manufacturing for the toy and VEX divisions, then they would not be the size company they are today. That is a fact. IFI literally has created 160 US jobs by actually out sourcing manufacturing processes that make sense.

Yep, we make a lot of our VEX and VEXpro products in China. We also design, engineer, program, test, and kit all of those products here in Texas. If you don't purchase our products because they are not "Made in the USA" (BTW, there are very strict US rules that allow you to use that sentence on a product) , then it is your loss.

Paul

[waialua359]

Who cares really about being "Made in America?"

All I care about is where I'm buying from and the reputation they have.
I'd bet that 99% of what teams decide to buy have nothing to do with the fine print on where they are made?

[DonRotolo]

Originally Posted by Cory

the average Chinese product used in FRC (bearings, cutting tools, hand tools, machinery, etc) are somewhere between mediocre and garbage.

Yes, the quality of some things from China is appalling. But some of it is the best available on the planet. And exactly the same can be said about the United States.

The point is, any country can produce junk, just as any country can produce excellence. The issue is the price you are willing to pay.

We live in a global economy, buy from the supplier who meets your needs. Pure capitalism dictates that if someone eets your needs better, they get your business. And vice-versa.

[mplanchard]

Make your decisions based on the function, quality, cost, and availability of the product. Raw material might be from Canada, design from the US, mold base from Japan and production from China.

SolidWorks is sold in 80 countries. Designers and manufacturers are everywhere. SolidWorks is headquartered in the US but our parent, Dassault Systemes is headquartered in France.

My engineering colleagues that I directly communicate with are in Asia, Europe Africa, Austrailia and the Americas. I use a cell phone designed in the US and manufactured in China. My Lenovo computer was manufactured in the US. I own a jeep that works great in the snow.

This is the global world we design, manufacture, and consume in. Marie

[Chowmaster4695]

At my work, we love to deal with France because their tolerances are within 2mm and you can't beat their quality or customer service! The only issue we had was with shipping out of the port of France and the 2 week lead time. There are a lot of pirates around the surrounding area so you have to make sure that your shipments are insured for triple the amount they cost. All in all I would recommend France over any US supplier.