Rookie Awards Ethics Question

[Mr. B.]

William,

Being the Lead Mentor for FRC 11 & 193, I can tell you that in our case in 2013 FRC 193 was not considered a Rookie Team in the eyes of MAR/FIRST. We were however able to obtain a Rookie KOP from FIRST since on the operational point, they were a "rookie" team and needed the basics to get up and running. We operate 11 & 193 as two separate teams, we help out when needed but both teams operate independent of each other. We're very fortunate that our FRC 193 team is mentored by MORT Alumni who have come back to help our program. It's allowed us to provide a very unique opportunity to our students and in just one year of having this JV team in place we have already seen the benefits for FRC 11.

Had MAR/FIRST allowed 193 to be considered a Rookie Team in 2013, we would have declined as that would have been the right thing to do. We went the route of adding 193 to our MORT family due to the shear numbers of students we have participating and too many freshman/1st year students were not getting the full FIRST experience.

Good Luck in 2014!

[dodar]

Originally Posted by Mr. B.

William,

Being the Lead Mentor for FRC 11 & 193, I can tell you that in our case in 2013 FRC 193 was not considered a Rookie Team in the eyes of MAR/FIRST. We were however able to obtain a Rookie KOP from FIRST since on the operational point, they were a "rookie" team and needed the basics to get up and running. We operate 11 & 193 as two separate teams, we help out when needed but both teams operate independent of each other. We're very fortunate that our FRC 193 team is mentored by MORT Alumni who have come back to help our program. It's allowed us to provide a very unique opportunity to our students and in just one year of having this JV team in place we have already seen the benefits for FRC 11.

Had MAR/FIRST allowed 193 to be considered a Rookie Team in 2013, we would have declined as that would have been the right thing to do. We went the route of adding 193 to our MORT family due to the shear numbers of students we have participating and too many freshman/1st year students were not getting the full FIRST experience.

Good Luck in 2014!

Just curious, but is 193 like a 1st/2nd year MORT member team or can the students pick which team to be a part of?

[wmarshall11]

Originally Posted by dodar

Just curious, but is 193 like a 1st/2nd year MORT member team or can the students pick which team to be a part of?

Beta is run as entirely separate team, with its own goals, decision making process and culture. It consists of first-year freshman and sophomore MORT students, with the intent of giving them hands-on experience that they would otherwise have to compete with upperclassmen for.

After spending a year on 193, Beta students graduate to 11, where they become some of the most productive students on the team.

[DELurker]

Originally Posted by Mr. B.

in 2013 FRC 193 was not considered a Rookie Team in the eyes of MAR/FIRST.

I was actually a little surprised when I found this out, but I guess it makes a kind of sense.

So ...

We have agreement that (E) is Rookie. I'd have been surprised otherwise.
We have an example that (B) is New, but not Rookie.
We seem to be looking at Rookie Criteria 6 for (D):

6. If individual students who have been involved in a team leave that school and start a team in their new school that team also is generally considered a Rookie providing it meets condition 1, and does not involve sufficient students to be considered a version of condition 3. As a maximum, the number of students in the new team that have competed in prior teams must not exceed 5.

So, I guess if (D) has more than 5 members with prior FRC experience, regardless of their qualification under Criteria 1, they're New, not Rookie?

1. A new team that starts in a school/organization/alliance that has never run an FRC team before would be considered a Rookie (note: most teams are formed within a single school, but some comprise two or more schools, or are organizations such as Scouts, Boys & Girls Clubs, home schools, etc.)
...
3. Where multiple schools were combined into a single team, and that team now wants to separate into different teams, or any single team wants to separate into different teams, the new teams do not qualify as Rookies unless the requirements set forth above in 2 are met. These teams will need to register as a "New" team in the Team Information Management System (TIMS) by following the Create/Re-establish a Team link, and follow all steps accordingly. See 2014 Team Combines and Separations for additional details.

Would that be correct?

[Mark McLeod]

The easy way to tell if FIRST has been satisfied that the new team meets all the rookie criteria is the team number that they are assigned.

This year for instance, Rookies are only those teams with numbers 4900 and higher.
They are the only teams eligible for rookie awards.

New "veteran" teams, like 193 was last year (rookie #'s started at 4450 last year), are given new team numbers that are below this year's 4900, usually a never been assigned number that is close to any associated parent/sibling team number. None of these new teams are eligible for rookie awards of course.

This year we have 388 rookies eligible for awards and 10 new veteran teams not eligible for rookie awards.
Not eligible new teams:
265
746
1285
1786
3134
3886
4413
4415
4416
4418
4524

[Carolyn_Grace]

Originally Posted by Mark McLeod

The easy way to tell if FIRST has been satisfied that the new team meets all the rookie criteria is the team number that they are assigned.

This year for instance, Rookies are only those teams with numbers 4900 and higher.
They are the only teams eligible for rookie awards.

New "veteran" teams, like 193 was last year (rookie #'s started at 4450 last year), are given new team numbers that are below this year's 4900, usually a never been assigned number that is close to any associated parent/sibling team number. None of these new teams are eligible for rookie awards of course.

This year we have 389 rookies eligible for awards and 10 new veteran teams not eligible for rookie awards.
Not eligible new teams:
265
746
1786
3134
3886
4413
5515
4416
4418
4524

This is really interesting. Thanks for sharing this information. Why is 5513 considered a non-rookie but has a higher number than 4900?

[Mark McLeod]

Originally Posted by Carolyn_Grace

This is really interesting. Thanks for sharing this information. Why is 5513 considered a non-rookie but has a higher number than 4900?

Because I cannot transcribe. (I see you share my problem )
It's 44 rather than 55

[Carolyn_Grace]

Originally Posted by Mark McLeod

Because I cannot transcribe. (I see you share my problem )
It's 44 rather than 55

The problem with trying to type on CD from my iPhone.

Though I've been part of FIRST for 11 years, I did not know that there were different ways to rank "new" FRC teams. I just assumed that a new team was a new team and given rookie status, so this thread is an interesting read for me.

I do know that starting a team, whether with experienced mentors/students or not, is a very difficult thing to do. I've also found that teams often struggle more their 2nd and 3rd years, due to loss of mentoring from other teams.

I'd be hesitant to say that a team should ethically turn down a rookie award without being in their shoes and knowing what they went through to create their team.

[Mr.Smoky15]

I feel if a team was made and then had to overcome common rookie issues (funding,resources,etc.), even if that means partnering with a veteran team, then they deserve the awards. Say High North wants to help rookie High East, High East is still a rookie team. However, if a team was made from the get go to be a "freshmen" or "2nd" team, then they should disqualify themselves from rookie awards.

So teams started by former members of other teams are still a rookie team if they had to start from scratch.

[Gregor]

Originally Posted by Mark McLeod

Not eligible new teams:
265
746
1786
3134
3886
4413
4415
4416
4418
4524

I believe 1285 should be on this list too.

[Mark McLeod]

Yes, they should.
Apologies to 1285.

The number had previously attempted to be issued in 2011 for a Sarasota, FL new vet, but they never competed and the number was returned to the never issued fold.

[DELurker]

Originally Posted by Mark McLeod

The easy way to tell if FIRST has been satisfied that the new team meets all the rookie criteria is the team number that they are assigned.

This year for instance, Rookies are only those teams with numbers 4900 and higher.
They are the only teams eligible for rookie awards.

Ah, but FIRST can only provide that based on the information the team provides. I personally know of a situation where a team above 4900 has received a Rookie Grant and should be excluded from Rookie status based on criteria 6 (over 5 previously competing FRC students) unless a waiver was issued.

However, the original question seems to have been drifted away from, so I'll focus it a little bit....

If a team is awarded Rookie status but has a decided leg-up in experience over other Rookie teams (8 members out of 15 with more than two years each in FRC), should they decline consideration for Rookie awards?

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by DELurker

Ah, but FIRST can only provide that based on the information the team provides. I personally know of a situation where a team above 4900 has received a Rookie Grant and should be excluded from Rookie status based on criteria 6 (over 5 previously competing FRC students) unless a waiver was issued.

And these waivers are issued from time to time. 5180 is based at Blythewood HS, where 1959 competed until 2011. In theory, they're within the three years and under the rules would've had to revive the old number. But considering there's only one student even left at the school from that era, the 2011 1959 squad only registered one match win at their lone regional, new teacher in charge, and so on, they apparently succeeded in getting FIRST to agree they're rookies. No disagreement from me.

However, the original question seems to have been drifted away from, so I'll focus it a little bit....

If a team is awarded Rookie status but has a decided leg-up in experience over other Rookie teams (8 members out of 15 with more than two years each in FRC), should they decline consideration for Rookie awards?

If they do not meet the criteria of a rookie team and haven't been given an exception from FIRST, then they're not a rookie team. While I've never heard of a team getting renumbered mid-season, I'd hope they would get this across to the judges.

[Robomom43]

I personally know of a team issued a number over 4900 that at its inception had 3 students with 3 years experience, 1 student with 2 years experience, and 1 student with one year experience. Now this team has 2 additional students with one year experience and 10 new members. This team formed after a split with an established team due to mentor/student issues. This team has maintained their gracious professionalism and not aired their issues with this previous team nor have they brought their very valid concerns to FIRST.