Rookie Awards Ethics Question

[DELurker]

OK. With the week 1 competitions about 1 week away, I wanted to ask the CD community-at-large for their opinion on something that has been bothering me. Please note that I know what the FRC rules on the topic are. I'm more interested in the popular view of what the rules should be (after all, it is an ethics question)...

Question 1:
How "Rookie" does a rookie team need to be to be eligible for Rookie All-Star, Highest Rookie Seed, and Rookie Inspiration Award?

Question 2:
Should a team that is rookie in name only bow out of accepting rookie awards?

Details:
Situation 1:
A large well-established team (A) forms a second team (B) for all of their first-year members. They collaborate and mentor the new team, but each team is responsible ultimately for their own designs, fundraising, sponsorship, community involvement, etc. Is (B) a true rookie team? Should they decline consideration for rookie awards?

Situation 2:
A team (C) has a rift (the reason is unimportant) and a number of very experienced members and mentors leave to form a new team (D). The two teams operate independently in all ways. Is (D) a true rookie team? Should they decline consideration for rookie awards?

Situation 3:
A new team (E) is formed in a town with no previous FRC experience. They collaborate via Skype with a more experienced team (F) 200+ miles away. Is (E) a true rookie team? Should they decline consideration for rookie awards?

I know that all three of these situations have occurred either in 2013 or 2014, so the scenarios are not unreasonable. However, at what point should a team graciously bow out of consideration for the rookie awards?

[Steven Donow]

Originally Posted by DELurker

Details:
Situation 1:
A large well-established team (A) forms a second team (B) for all of their first-year members. They collaborate and mentor the new team, but each team is responsible ultimately for their own designs, fundraising, sponsorship, community involvement, etc. Is (B) a true rookie team? Should they decline consideration for rookie awards?

This situation isn't applicable in my opinion, because a team under this circumstances isn't considered a rookie team.

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by DevenStonow

This situation isn't applicable in my opinion, because a team under this circumstances isn't considered a rookie team.

The team in Situation 2 generally wouldn't be considered a rookie team either, would it?

[dodar]

Originally Posted by bduddy

The team in Situation 2 generally wouldn't be considered a rookie team either, would it?

Yes it would. If I remember some history, that's kind of how 1592 was formed from 233. And we won a few rookie awards in 2005.

[Steven Donow]

Originally Posted by bduddy

The team in Situation 2 generally wouldn't be considered a rookie team either, would it?

Based off the 2014 Rookie Team criteria, I would say it does as it meets the following lines:

1. A new team that starts in a school/organization/alliance that has never run an FRC team before would be considered a Rookie (note: most teams are formed within a single school, but some comprise two or more schools, or are organizations such as Scouts, Boys & Girls Clubs, home schools, etc.)

<snip>

5. If a mentor, or teacher, from an existing team leaves and starts a team at a new school, that team does qualify as a Rookie team.

6. If individual students who have been involved in a team leave that school and start a team in their new school that team also is generally considered a Rookie providing it meets condition 1, and does not involve sufficient students to be considered a version of condition 3. As a maximum, the number of students in the new team that have competed in prior teams must not exceed 5.

[Orion.DeYoe]

I don't see a problem with any of the "rookie" teams in any of those cases winning awards.
2056 is the best example of a "rookie" team that started out with all the experience of a veteran team.
Unfortunately "rookie team" is usually synonymous with "crappy team". More teams should learn from the example of 2056 (and other teams like 4334) and seek the help of a veteran team in their first few years. A group also shouldn't start a team unless they know they have the resources to be successful.

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by Orion.DeYoe

A group also shouldn't start a team unless they know they have the resources to be successful.

So you're saying that a prospective team should deny themselves the inspiration and all the other benefits FIRST can bring, just because they may lack some resources?

[TedG]

All good questions.
In my opinion, Situation 3 is the only rookie team of those examples.
**Edit.. And probably Situation 1 if they are on thier own and only getting advice from the mentor team.

I've heard of another scenario where "team A" is a rookie team (started by some experienced mentors) exists for a couple years, then looses it's school and funding. Then the experienced mentors form a new "team B" somewhere else, and are considered a rookie team and all the rookie benefits. I don't know what they brought with them such as tools, supplies, etc. I assume they started over, not sure.

What do you think about that?

I guess you could argue that anyone, experienced or not, starting a new team for a new organization, needing new funding, equipment, sponsors etc is going to struggle I think.... and should be considered a rookie team.

I haven't read what the criteria is to be a rookie team, these are just my thoughts.

[BigJ]

Originally Posted by bduddy

So you're saying that a prospective team should deny themselves the inspiration and all the other benefits FIRST can bring, just because they may lack some resources?

A prospective team should do some research ahead of time to determine the resources, time commitment, etc. a FRC team requires to reach a level of success they find acceptable (whether that be complete a season, contend for RAS, play in elims, etc.). If they can't reach those amounts of resources, time, etc., there is probably another program that will better serve their needs.

Just my 2 cents.

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by DELurker

Question 1:
How "Rookie" does a rookie team need to be to be eligible for Rookie All-Star, Highest Rookie Seed, and Rookie Inspiration Award?

It must only be defined by FIRST as a rookie team. I've been on and around teams that get the air-quote treatment, and you know what? Experience makes the process of starting a team hardly any easier. We grind just as hard to recruit, to fundraise, to get grants, to do outreach activities without a robot. The only thing a few experienced hands have an advantage with is knowing how big to dream.

Question 2:
Should a team that is rookie in name only bow out of accepting rookie awards?

See Question 1. There's no such thing.

Details:
Situation 1:
A large well-established team (A) forms a second team (B) for all of their first-year members. They collaborate and mentor the new team, but each team is responsible ultimately for their own designs, fundraising, sponsorship, community involvement, etc. Is (B) a true rookie team? Should they decline consideration for rookie awards?

No, because that team is not considered a rookie team by FIRST. (It's not explicit in the linked rookie criteria, but a combination of items 1 and 3 get it close enough. And in practice, this is what FIRST does. See 11 and 193, among many others.)

Situation 2:
A team (C) has a rift (the reason is unimportant) and a number of very experienced members and mentors leave to form a new team (D). The two teams operate independently in all ways. Is (D) a true rookie team? Should they decline consideration for rookie awards?

If they meet the criteria of Item 6 in the criteria, yes. A couple people who know what they're doing is no substitute for an experienced team.

Situation 3:
A new team (E) is formed in a town with no previous FRC experience. They collaborate via Skype with a more experienced team (F) 200+ miles away. Is (E) a true rookie team? Should they decline consideration for rookie awards?

HECK YES they're a rookie team! Collaboration is just another form of mentoring, and has been established as a perfectly valid approach. You'll have a hard time doing demos, fundraising, and generally getting exposure in the community over Skype.

I know that all three of these situations have occurred either in 2013 or 2014, so the scenarios are not unreasonable. However, at what point should a team graciously bow out of consideration for the rookie awards?

My stance should be clear by now that a rookie team is a rookie team. The only time 4901 will even entertain standing down is if we win Rookie All-Star at Palmetto (our first event), such that a rookie team at the Orlando Regional (our second) has a chance to reach Championship as well.

[Mr. B.]

William,

Being the Lead Mentor for FRC 11 & 193, I can tell you that in our case in 2013 FRC 193 was not considered a Rookie Team in the eyes of MAR/FIRST. We were however able to obtain a Rookie KOP from FIRST since on the operational point, they were a "rookie" team and needed the basics to get up and running. We operate 11 & 193 as two separate teams, we help out when needed but both teams operate independent of each other. We're very fortunate that our FRC 193 team is mentored by MORT Alumni who have come back to help our program. It's allowed us to provide a very unique opportunity to our students and in just one year of having this JV team in place we have already seen the benefits for FRC 11.

Had MAR/FIRST allowed 193 to be considered a Rookie Team in 2013, we would have declined as that would have been the right thing to do. We went the route of adding 193 to our MORT family due to the shear numbers of students we have participating and too many freshman/1st year students were not getting the full FIRST experience.

Good Luck in 2014!

[dodar]

Originally Posted by Mr. B.

William,

Being the Lead Mentor for FRC 11 & 193, I can tell you that in our case in 2013 FRC 193 was not considered a Rookie Team in the eyes of MAR/FIRST. We were however able to obtain a Rookie KOP from FIRST since on the operational point, they were a "rookie" team and needed the basics to get up and running. We operate 11 & 193 as two separate teams, we help out when needed but both teams operate independent of each other. We're very fortunate that our FRC 193 team is mentored by MORT Alumni who have come back to help our program. It's allowed us to provide a very unique opportunity to our students and in just one year of having this JV team in place we have already seen the benefits for FRC 11.

Had MAR/FIRST allowed 193 to be considered a Rookie Team in 2013, we would have declined as that would have been the right thing to do. We went the route of adding 193 to our MORT family due to the shear numbers of students we have participating and too many freshman/1st year students were not getting the full FIRST experience.

Good Luck in 2014!

Just curious, but is 193 like a 1st/2nd year MORT member team or can the students pick which team to be a part of?

[wmarshall11]

Originally Posted by dodar

Just curious, but is 193 like a 1st/2nd year MORT member team or can the students pick which team to be a part of?

Beta is run as entirely separate team, with its own goals, decision making process and culture. It consists of first-year freshman and sophomore MORT students, with the intent of giving them hands-on experience that they would otherwise have to compete with upperclassmen for.

After spending a year on 193, Beta students graduate to 11, where they become some of the most productive students on the team.

[DELurker]

Originally Posted by Mr. B.

in 2013 FRC 193 was not considered a Rookie Team in the eyes of MAR/FIRST.

I was actually a little surprised when I found this out, but I guess it makes a kind of sense.

So ...

We have agreement that (E) is Rookie. I'd have been surprised otherwise.
We have an example that (B) is New, but not Rookie.
We seem to be looking at Rookie Criteria 6 for (D):

6. If individual students who have been involved in a team leave that school and start a team in their new school that team also is generally considered a Rookie providing it meets condition 1, and does not involve sufficient students to be considered a version of condition 3. As a maximum, the number of students in the new team that have competed in prior teams must not exceed 5.

So, I guess if (D) has more than 5 members with prior FRC experience, regardless of their qualification under Criteria 1, they're New, not Rookie?

1. A new team that starts in a school/organization/alliance that has never run an FRC team before would be considered a Rookie (note: most teams are formed within a single school, but some comprise two or more schools, or are organizations such as Scouts, Boys & Girls Clubs, home schools, etc.)
...
3. Where multiple schools were combined into a single team, and that team now wants to separate into different teams, or any single team wants to separate into different teams, the new teams do not qualify as Rookies unless the requirements set forth above in 2 are met. These teams will need to register as a "New" team in the Team Information Management System (TIMS) by following the Create/Re-establish a Team link, and follow all steps accordingly. See 2014 Team Combines and Separations for additional details.

Would that be correct?

[Mark McLeod]

The easy way to tell if FIRST has been satisfied that the new team meets all the rookie criteria is the team number that they are assigned.

This year for instance, Rookies are only those teams with numbers 4900 and higher.
They are the only teams eligible for rookie awards.

New "veteran" teams, like 193 was last year (rookie #'s started at 4450 last year), are given new team numbers that are below this year's 4900, usually a never been assigned number that is close to any associated parent/sibling team number. None of these new teams are eligible for rookie awards of course.

This year we have 388 rookies eligible for awards and 10 new veteran teams not eligible for rookie awards.
Not eligible new teams:
265
746
1285
1786
3134
3886
4413
4415
4416
4418
4524