pic: Team 5040 Drive Base photo.

[GortGortGort]

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[JohnFogarty]

If you have the extra weight. Please for the love of all that is good for your team's success....put two more CIMS on your drive train. Trust me.

[fox46]

Please for the love of all that is good for your team's success....put two more CIMS on your drive train.

I along with all of your future alliance partners, second this motion.

If you have a great shooter / passer but can't get to where you need to be to score points you won't be able to play the game. If you don't have a great shooter and can't get to where you need to be to compete assists and you can't at least slow down your opponents by playing defense, you also cannot play the game. I can tell you 99% of the teams out there have you outgunned at LEAST 2:1 on driveability. Sorry to say but without more power your opponents will have more say in where your robot goes than you do.

It should only take an hour or two to add two more speed controllers, hook them to power, use a Y harness to connect their PWM inputs to your existing drive speed controllers and then bolt two more CIMs into your gearboxes on the Thursday before competition. You don't even have to program anything. If you are short parts or need some help I am sure any team at your competition will jump to help you.

[Robo Hamsters]

Originally Posted by fox46

I along with all of your future alliance partners, second this motion.

If you have a great shooter / passer but can't get to where you need to be to score points you won't be able to play the game. If you don't have a great shooter and can't get to where you need to be to compete assists and you can't at least slow down your opponents by playing defense, you also cannot play the game. I can tell you 99% of the teams out there have you outgunned at LEAST 2:1 on driveability. Sorry to say but without more power your opponents will have more say in where your robot goes than you do.

It should only take an hour or two to add two more speed controllers, hook them to power, use a Y harness to connect their PWM inputs to your existing drive speed controllers and then bolt two more CIMs into your gearboxes on the Thursday before competition. You don't even have to program anything. If you are short parts or need some help I am sure any team at your competition will jump to help you.

Definitely agree with this. Last year was our rookie year and we did a 4 CIM drivetrain. We also had a very low CG and we were pretty effective at stopping almost any bot that we wanted to. Helped us get picked for elims and helped us get to Worlds last year.

[Andy A.]

At the risk of this starting to turn into a dogpile, the kitbot drivetrain was really intended to be used with 4 CIM's. I've forgotten what the targeted final speed for the Kitbot is, but I think it's something like 10fps. Take a look at

http://team358.org/files/mechanical/...nRefTables.jpg

With two CIM's and the KOP wheels (~1.0 COF) you're in a very marginal area of the chart for normal driving and almost certainly current limited in a pushing match. It's just geared way too fast. With a full weight robot you may have trouble even turning on carpet.

The kit bot with 4 cims is going to give you way better performance during normal drive (better acceleration, turning and happier motors). It's a pretty easy upgrade to make in the pits and totally worth the weight and controllers. If, for whatever reason, you can't add in the extra motors, strongly consider things you can do to ease turning and/or limit traction. Things like swapping traction wheels for 'omnis' or programmed acceleration curves may help with drive performance, and coaching drivers to resist the urge to push is just about mandatory here.

[GortGortGort]

Thanks for the advise as a rookie team we really had no idea that
this ordering parts is a gimmick sorta thing ,limited supply , mom and pop type of affair ,we just
kinda are learning as we go . We had a order for 2 extra jags and 2 SIMs motors
They arrived the day after the bag and tag . Something about a snow storm
or whatever. In the real world you get fired for not supplying parts in a timely
fashion. But this is a game world and rules are in place ,so there are no consequences for the suppliers . The motors will be the first thing we pull out
of our 45 pounds of spare parts .

[markmcgary]

Originally Posted by GortGortGort

But this is a game world and rules are in place ,so there are no consequences for the suppliers . The motors will be the first thing we pull out of our 45 pounds of spare parts .

Yes, you should be very familiar with the rules. Especially those regarding COTS parts and the Withholding Allowance.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by GortGortGort

Thanks for the advise as a rookie team we really had no idea that
this ordering parts is a gimmick sorta thing ,limited supply , mom and pop type of affair ,we just
kinda are learning as we go . We had a order for 2 extra jags and 2 SIMs motors
They arrived the day after the bag and tag . Something about a snow storm
or whatever. In the real world you get fired for not supplying parts in a timely
fashion. But this is a game world and rules are in place ,so there are no consequences for the suppliers . The motors will be the first thing we pull out
of our 45 pounds of spare parts .

1> Shipping delays happen all the time in the real world, without people getting fired.
2> CIMs are COTS. and therefore not counted against your 45Lbs withholding (Unless you've attached them to something or <shudder> modified them)

[GortGortGort]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

1> Shipping delays happen all the time in the real world, without people getting fired.
2> CIMs are COTS. and therefore not counted against your 45Lbs withholding (Unless you've attached them to something or <shudder> modified them)

Thanks for the advise on the COTS ,but I in my business if you are a supplier and you fail
to deliver a order in a timely fashion you are promptly replace from the vendors
list that is what we refer to as being fired . A four week delay in receiving a order for a six week project that is time sensitive will get you removed from most companies vendors list . Just saying , So in fact having only one or two vendors supplying all the teams with select parts is in fact part of the game. The teams that have large budgets can afford to stockpile parts off season while rookie teams or teams with limited budgets have a disadvantage of receiving parts whenever the supplier choose to deliver..

[fox46]

A four week delay in receiving a order for a six week project that is time sensitive will get you removed from most companies vendors list . Just saying , So in fact having only one or two vendors supplying all the teams with select parts is in fact part of the game. The teams that have large budgets can afford to stockpile parts off season while rookie teams or teams with limited budgets have a disadvantage of receiving parts whenever the supplier choose to deliver.

You have to understand that there were some very extenuating circumstances this year with some severe weather that impacted many teams in the states. The fact that some suppliers were able to get any parts out is impressive.

I have to ask- did you use the express shipping option or standard shipping? If you used standard then I am not surprised it took so long to get your parts. When you're ordering parts during build season always go with the fastest shipping option- think of it as buying time. Time is worth every penny.

Veteran teams are indeed at an advantage because they often have parts left over from previous years. I am sure however that if you were to contact a couple teams in your area and explained your situation they would have been more than happy to lend you the required parts with a promise to replace them later when your order came in.

[mrnoble]

Originally Posted by GortGortGort

Thanks for the advise on the COTS ,but I in my business if you are a supplier and you fail
to deliver a order in a timely fashion you are promptly replace from the vendors
list that is what we refer to as being fired . A four week delay in receiving a order for a six week project that is time sensitive will get you removed from most companies vendors list . Just saying , So in fact having only one or two vendors supplying all the teams with select parts is in fact part of the game. The teams that have large budgets can afford to stockpile parts off season while rookie teams or teams with limited budgets have a disadvantage of receiving parts whenever the supplier choose to deliver..

I'm unclear. Are you saying that you ordered two CIM motors and their motor controllers from AndyMark on or around January 20, and that they didn't arrive until this Wednesday? If so, did you in any way initiate contact with them while you waited for your parts?

I understand how strange it is entering the world of robotics competitions. In my rookie year (2004), we built a bot with bicycle wheels, and out of scrap from a dilapidated dog house. We had no idea what we were doing. The only thing that happened at our first competition was that it drove forward, reversed, and fell over and broke. But let me say this: while it is true that there are only a handful of companies that manufacture or sell products specifically for this game, they are not relaxing on their butts because they've got you over a barrel. The people at AndyMark, Vex, Banebots etc. are great people, they work incredibly hard, and they are here to serve you and your students. Please don't dismiss them and cut off one of the best resources you will have if you choose to continue building robots.

[GortGortGort]

Originally Posted by mrnoble

I'm unclear. Are you saying that you ordered two CIM motors and their motor controllers from AndyMark on or around January 20, and that they didn't arrive until this Wednesday? If so, did you in any way initiate contact with them while you waited for your parts?

I understand how strange it is entering the world of robotics competitions. In my rookie year (2004), we built a bot with bicycle wheels, and out of scrap from a dilapidated dog house. We had no idea what we were doing. The only thing that happened at our first competition was that it drove forward, reversed, and fell over and broke. But let me say this: while it is true that there are only a handful of companies that manufacture or sell products specifically for this game, they are not relaxing on their butts because they've got you over a barrel. The people at AndyMark, Vex, Banebots etc. are great people, they work incredibly hard, and they are here to serve you and your students. Please don't dismiss them and cut off one of the best resources you will have if you choose to continue building robots.

I think when you cool down a bit you just might see the trees for the forest.
I stand by what I said earlier , it is what it is ,part of the game. Limited supply
and when they run out there is no other place to get the part from until the supplier restocks his supply and then mails your order.
I understand these folks are your friends but in the real world you just don't
have the luxury of waiting . In my machine shop I build robotic telescopes
and prototypes for industry and it is all about profit vs time . If I don't receive the parts in time then someone else gets the order its just business.
We ran into the same thing in FTC with Tetrix and Pitsco companies.
Limited supply + required parts + time restraint .
Never have made a robot from a dog house before but have made them from wheelchair bases and RC controllers . I love building robots but just hate
being told what parts to use . But it is what it is simply part of the game.