Week 1 Analysis

[team222badbrad]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

The head ref at Hatboro would frequently pause matches to fix podium issues, then resume them. It happened about every two or three matches.

Do you mean the pedestal?

What were the reasons for fixing it? Did they have to change the light bulb? :-)

[Jay O'Donnell]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

The head ref at Hatboro would frequently pause matches to fix podium issues, then resume them. It happened about every two or three matches.

I didn't even know that was able to happen....that's absolutely ridiculous.

[Mr. B 2851]

Way too many teams who do not have an auton will start with a ball.

Refs have way too much to watch to be able to call matches cleanly.

Penalties and scoring is way out of balance.

So many teams don't know the rules.

So many alliances did not have a human player in every zone which resulted in confusion and lost time whenever a ball left the field and the volunteer had to figure out where to take the ball.

So many teams don't know how to scout.

If your robot relies on a loose ball sitting in the right position to be scored you are going to have a very bad day.

[ThunderousPrime]

Originally Posted by Rohawk1

There is a question box for any calls that coaches only can contest. The coach usually has to go there right after a match though. Knowing the rules is incredibly important.

This is untrue in two respects:

1. Only a Pre-College Student can enter the question box. In many case it will be the student coach but an adult coach would have to send a student to ask a question.
2. Also, rulings are final so unless you can convince the ref that a field fault or ref fault that influenced the outcome of the match you're most likely out of luck. (A match will be replayed if such a fault is found.)

The Rule referenced in point 1 is T13.

[Richard Wallace]

Originally Posted by Christopher149

Looking at the manual, the only instance of "glove" is in the Admin section:

Look a little further. The section you quoted above (4.2 FIRST Safety) begins with a reference to the FRC Team Safety Manual. Starting on page 10 of that manual there is a detailed description of procedures teams should use when lifting, handling, and transporting the robot. The first bullet point there: ensure that all lifters are wearing PPE (safety glasses, gloves, etc.)

I agree recommendations are not the same thing as requirements. Teams should work safely because it is the smart way to play.

[SargeUSMC]

Didn't go thru all the posts, so I donno if this was mentioned already, but I viewed multiple matches online at different regionals where there there were multiple alliance balls in play (once all left over balls from auto were cleared.) That is to say, new balls were being put into play before existing cycles were completed.

And there were times that I saw robots waiting an inordinate amount of time for a new ball to be put into play as well.....

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by team222badbrad

Do you mean the pedestal?

What were the reasons for fixing it? Did they have to change the light bulb? :-)

Yes, the pedestal. Sorry for the mix-up.

By "fixing," I meant making sure it was lit when it was supposed to be. Often, it should have been lit after the completion of a cycle, but it wasn't. Teams would shout and bang the glass, then the head ref would fog horn the match, consult with refs/volunteers to ensure the proper pedestals were lit, and resume the match.

This happened less frequently on Sunday than Saturday, and less frequently still in the eliminations (only once that I noticed, but I didn't get the chance to watch every elim match). The pedestals were also lit quicker in the eliminations, in general (but some assists were still missed).

[cglrcng]

Originally Posted by PVCpirate

This might be unpopular, but I don't think the bar behind the goal should be changed. When I first saw people posting about it, I pulled up the official drawings and found the part. If I was on a team, there's a decent chance I would have wanted to see exactly how the goal would look at competition, and at least try to adjust my shots accordingly. The rules also state that the ball must go through the goal and stay there to be scored. It's the same bar for everyone, and it was never a secret.

You are correct IMHO....If all did their full homework (or adjusted their shooters to fix the problem now...at least work out a solution to apply to their bot in the future as soon as they legally can), they would have forseen that those bars over the drivers heads in the low part of the upper goals, could potentially be a future problem for those w/ a flat shot, or one going through even w/ or after the center of their shot arc...(We did forsee a possible issue very early, so we shoot up through the goal early on our arc and will be missing those bars altogether). OK, so we are not shooting from the white zone to do so, but the sweet spot is nice that way, and can be done easily in auto & on the run too in teleop, so that much harder to defend against also)....It is a problem that should not be fixed any more than the lower chain fix in the upper frisbee goals was last year, (when the fix actually caused more problems w/ missed goals), than the original issue causing the chains to tangle up did.

Deal w/ that issue by changing how you shoot, as it really isn't that hard to do.
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-The lack of actually made Auto Shots (and the actual # of attempted truss shots flat missed), overall this weekend, was unbelieveable and actually very sad. (The game is Pick up, pass, shoot, catch, pass, shoot.....Design a robot to the game. Code to the Auto. Drive your hearts out. Train your HP's to avoid the G20 penalties at all cost. (Or it will cost you bigtime! and when it counts).

-Watching HP's inbounding or on the sidelines flat hang onto a ball off the field too long just looking for a robot to inbound to (many I saw did this, over & over again, on the many multi stream matches I watched this weekend), for from a full 30 seconds to even a full minute or more, instead of just throwing that ball over those 2 defenders sitting right in front of them, to their bot clear across the field...Had me actually yelling at my computer screen constantly.

HP's, they can't score "anything", if you are holding on to that ball in your hands. (Though I did see a few inbounders that were tossing them much too quickly and very inacurately too (most ended up in the opposing alliances low goal), and then running off like they had something they had to do really fast too...Like send or read a text on their phone maybe?) Take your time going back to that ball on the not yet lighted tube inbounders....It will be a few seconds at least before it lights up again sending you on another important mission to deliver it to your alliance.

-Those that can make those high goals and rarely ever miss, should never 1 point it unless you are sitting w/ 3 assists already.

-Last but not least...The Ri3D overhead wheel type / lean out P.U. is actually easy to defeat by a well played defender. (And I'm glad our team didn't go that way now). Holding that ball tightly is a must while travelling the field and while being defended.
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I am just so glad (after watching all those week 1 matches that I did),....that our team personally took the "back to basics approach" and made the bot simply to "play the game" this year, and left out all the bells, whistles, and pretty lights and other fancy stuff.

I cannot wait to see it play in week #4 (if what I know that bagged 1 does already, and I know what I see them practicing daily now w/ the Practice Bot is building to....Yes, the last few days we were making sure our HP's know where that "no man's land" is (as when they lost 10" of HP play area, we just knew that would make things that much tougher on them), and they are to stay away from it always. (It isn't natural for them though, trying to toss or roll that ball inbounds by pushing from behind it, instead of throwing it w/ hands on the sides of the ball). That, and trying to break the "human player auto error correction habit" they all will naturally have, by leaning over & reaching into the field to "get it where they actually meant it to go." (Let it go HP's...Leave it alone! Let your bot get your error drops...they can P.U. that ball up too as it was designed to do rather quickly). Coaching from the sidelines will lead to many G50 technicals w/ those arms waving & pointing all done while in "No Man's Land"...HP's, Do not do it PERIOD!

-Oh, and some of the actually scoring was totally erroneous...But they are just volunteers, and it is a tough game....let us all remember that please and be courteous in our statements OK. That will get much better as time goes on & before the Championships....that we can be sure of.

Book over...whew.

[EricH]

Speaking as a ref, on a 6-person crew, at a Week 1 regional:

The crew I was on was in agreement that we had way too much to do. And that the panels for input need an update.

1) The refs are keeping track of possessions, scores (truss, catch, and goal--and miss), cycles, AND fouls by both robots and human players. Odds are, something is going to get overlooked unless it's blatant.
2) Lag, lag, wait for it... lag. On some screens, the panels are fairly quick... but on others, it's a good solid 3-4 seconds. And when ending a cycle, on top of the potential wait for a ball to be good or bad for sure, there's whatever lag is in the system to get the signal to the pedestal to light up.


And... my personal hope is that G40 gets revised to a Foul. Particularly given the severe effects a T-Foul has on the score.

[team222badbrad]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

By "fixing," I meant making sure it was lit when it was supposed to be. Often, it should have been lit after the completion of a cycle, but it wasn't.

There were several complaints with this at Mt. Olive as well which is why I jokingly mentioned changing the light bulb. There was never any paused matches that I was aware of though. There were a several replays some of which I believe were due to unlit pedestals.

I'd like to know what the issue typically is for causing the unlit pedestal? I assume it's just human error which is the cause of way too many matches being lost for teams who should have won. This is something we figured out on kickoff and unfortunately I think it will continue to happen for the remainder of the season. Hopefully it will be reduced significantly by week 2.

[Abhishek R]

Originally Posted by cglrcng

You are correct IMHO....If all did their full homework (or adjusted their shooters to fix the problem now...at least work out a solution to apply to their bot in the future as soon as they legally can), they would have forseen that those bars over the drivers heads in the low part of the upper goals, could potentially be a future problem...Deal w/ that issue by changing how you shoot, as it really isn't that hard to do.

Does this mean teams should have foreseen the 30 second wait time from scoring to the lit pedestal as the refs wait to see if the ball bounces back into the field?

They've made changes to the field because of these issues before, it's not a huge stretch to do that here. All you have to do is put a plate over the bars so it's flat or inclined backwards.

[team222badbrad]

Originally Posted by Abhishek R

Does this mean teams should have foreseen the 30 second wait time from scoring to the lit pedestal as the refs wait to see if the ball bounces back into the field?

They've made changes to the field because of these issues before, it's not a huge stretch to do that here. All you have to do is put a plate over the bars so it's flat or inclined backwards.

We missed a few shots due to those bars.

We also had an autonomous ball in the finals get stuck on the bars.

The volunteer had a rough time removing it from those bars and almost knocked it back onto the field. What would have happened then?

It is definitely something FIRST needs to consider.

[TheMadCADer]

Field Reset volunteers don't know who to give balls back to. Human Players should be given a distinct Red or Blue vest to wear during matches so that they are easy to pick out in the crowd of people around the field. 6 vests is a cheap and easy solution, and the only training it requires is telling the volunteers to look for a vest matching the ball in their hands.

[PVCpirate]

Scoring Panel lag aside, I just thought of something with regards to the referees, assuming a 6 person crew:

2 refs are assigned as "Ball Refs". Each one picks an alliance and follows their ball. They rule on assists, trusses, catches, ball posession fouls, dead balls and goals. Autonomous shouldn't be too much of an issue since there are no trusses, catches or assists.

2 refs are assigned as "Robot Refs." They could divide the field in half somehow and watch the robots on one side. They rule on Robot-Robot interaction fouls, single robot issues.

5th and maybe 6th refs could watch human players, I'm not sure of the exact role of the Head Ref currently, he may have other, more important roles.

What do the refs think?

[MysterE]

Originally Posted by Thunder910

Some roller intakes are terrible. Generally roller intake>non roller intake, but some teams I'm sure have made the pinch work (I'm interested to see how 4334 and 842 do).

I would disagree with this. We used the pincher method quite effectively. It also held onto the ball well at Alamo. Our major issue came when the arms were hit hard multiple times during eliminations. Redesigning before Bayou is already underway.