Bumpers

[Kevins]

We were wondering if we could get some advice about bumpers. We made our bumpers reversible. When we turn them to red, a little bit of blue shows on the corners and vice versa (pictures attached). Will these pass inspection with a small amount of the other color showing on the corners?

Thank you!

[nicholsjj]

I believe you would fail due to R27 because you would display something on your bumpers besides your alliance color and 4" stroke team number.

[TikiTech]

It is not confusing to the observer..

R27

Each ROBOT must be able to display red or blue BUMPERS to match their ALLIANCE color, as assigned in the MATCH schedule distributed at the event (reference Section 5.1.1: MATCH Schedules). Markings visible when installed on the ROBOT, other than those explicitly required per R28, are prohibited.

And fyi R28 is about the numbering of the bumpers

So Sadly .. "YOU SHALL NOT PASS!"
May be some correctly colored tape would get you by.. small "repair"

Good luck this season.

Aloha!

[bEdhEd]

My team has passed inspection with a little bit of the other color showing. Usually, the inspectors have no problem with it, even at championships, since it's obvious which color the bumpers are supposed to be. From a spectator's view, it's hardly noticeable, if at all noticeable.

But every inspector may be a little different, and I would advise having a plan in case they rule your bumpers to be illegal. Have some extra fabric ready just for good measure.
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R27
Each ROBOT must be able to display red or blue BUMPERS to match their ALLIANCE color, as assigned in the MATCH schedule distributed at the event (reference Section 5.1.1: MATCH Schedules). Markings visible when installed on the ROBOT, other than those explicitly required per R28, are prohibited.

R28
Team numbers must be displayed on the BUMPERS and meet the following criteria:

consist of numerals at least 4 in. high, at least ½ in. in stroke width, and be either white in color or outlined in white,
may not wrap around a corner of the FRAME PERIMETER (for the purposes of R28 a round or circular FRAME PERIMETER has no corners), and
be positioned around the ROBOT such that an observer walking around the perimeter of the ROBOT can unambiguously tell the Team’s number from any point of view.
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As a prospective inspector for future FRC events, this is what I would say:

It will be obvious to inspectors that your bumpers are either in the red or blue configuration, when in accordance to the match schedule. Arguing that a little bit of corner showing does not meet R27 criteria could be "lawyering" the rules a bit, in my opinion. That small amount showing on the corner is hardly enough to say that the bumper no longer qualifies as a red or a blue bumper. It is very clear which color you intend the bumper to be. An illegal case would be making a bumper half red and half blue on one side, which would definitely go against R27.

R28 only refers to corners when numbers wrap around them. I would not consider a slightly exposed corner a "marking" as stated in R27. I would say that R27 most likely refers to "markings" as any type of symbol or graphic like numbers, letters, or logos that are applied by media like paint, embroidery, iron on, or dye. Any marking that is not a number that meets R28 criteria will not pass. R28, as it appears to me, exists to prevent teams from putting their team name, logo, or any other symbols on the bumper.





Here's our corner with a little of the other color showing. Our bumpers passed at all four competitions we went to in 2013, which includes St. Louis Championships. You can even see a sliver of red through the reversible bumpers on the robot behind us, and they're on the field, so they passed, too. A tiny bit of exposed fabric is kind of an inevitability with reversibles.

This isn't to guarantee that your bumpers will pass, though. Generally, we have some extra fabric on our corners, and we tuck and stuff it into the space between, so the other color doesn't show at all. We made sure to do that this year mainly for aesthetics. If your team has some extra time, try to add some fabric to the corners. It wouldn't hurt to do so.

[Jaxom]

Inspectors aren't the only people that you need to consider; referees have G20 to enforce. As an inspector I would tell you that those corners are probably OK; I'd pass your robot but warn you about the refs & G20. If they deem that amount of the opposite color unacceptable you're going to have an unpleasant match; G20 would be really harsh.

I have seen reversible bumpers that do not have any of the opposite color showing; it is possible. Putting a bit of tape on really isn't a good solution; this isn't damage that needs to be repaired.

You should be OK, but remember - inspectors are all nice and are always your friend. It's those referees that are evil, nasty, and just downright mean.

[loyal]

Tape is not a good solution but there is no rule about safety pins. That can from a head inspectors mouth last year.

[discobrisco]

What we have done every year is reversible bumpers which just Velcro to the bottom or top. There is a little bit of the opposite color but it's never been a problem to my knowledge.

[bEdhEd]

Originally Posted by Jaxom

I have seen reversible bumpers that do not have any of the opposite color showing; it is possible.

I agree. When my team tucks the fabric in their corners, you can't see the other color on the corner. Sometimes the fabric peeks through after a rough match, though.
I've seen a lot of reversibles that have exposed corners, and ive seen some that are done really well, that don't show any of the other color. In many cases, the sewing job isn't perfect. Getting reversibles right can be very difficult if there isn't someone available who is skilled at sewing. This year, our bumpers have quick release pins AND they're reversible. For next year, we want to do separate sets, since we already are using pins anyway, and single color bumpers are a breeze to make.

[Jon Stratis]

Well, the GDC has ruled:

Q. May a team partially show the opposite bumper color if they are using reversible style bumpers and the majority of the bumpers display the correct alliance color.

A. No, R27 requires red or blue BUMPERS and makes no accommodation for red and blue BUMPERS.

https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/...alliance-color

I've seen a lot of questions this year that falls into a similar bucket - a question that is only going to have one answer, and the answer is going to be strict. This answer, for example, makes many reversible bumpers that have been OK the past few years illegal, and yet it's really the only answer you can expect from the GDC. As an LRI, I now find it difficult to allow a team to slide by, when I would have otherwise passed the pictures shown in this thread - having a straight GDC interpretation like this forces me to be more strict at the event as well. And even if I did pass them, G20 would allow the refs to disable the robot for the small sliver of the wrong color that I ignored.

[FrankJ]

We have two sets of bumpers so I don't have a dog in this fight. I would hate to see a team kept from playing because of a small sliver of color. Especailly disabled while on the field. I understand a LRIs dilemma & I will be neither you robot inspector or referee.

[TedG]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

Well, the GDC has ruled:


https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/...alliance-color

This answer, for example, makes many reversible bumpers that have been OK the past few years illegal, and yet it's really the only answer you can expect from the GDC. As an LRI, I now find it difficult to allow a team to slide by, when I would have otherwise passed the pictures shown in this thread - having a straight GDC interpretation like this forces me to be more strict at the event as well.

So you're saying "don't ask, don't tell"?
Similar to the bumper number question asked in another thread....

Question was asked if a white number with a purple outline was acceptable and the answer was "no".

When in fact I have seen numbers out there either white numbers outlined with something else or some color outlined with white, some very hard to read from the stands.

Unfortunately if you don't know, you need to ask so you don't get in trouble, and that triggers an official "anwer" that needs to be followed by inspectors/refs.

I would imagine the more FIRST grows with rookie teams, these types of questions will be asked.

I'm not sure what the correct action would be in these cases(?)

I think some of the rules need to be re-worded, in this case, to accommadate this exact issue, like "98% of the bumber frabric needs to be the intended color and be obvious to a common observer".

~shrug~

[Steve W]

Originally Posted by loyal

Tape is not a good solution but there is no rule about safety pins. That can from a head inspectors mouth last year.

Not true. There is a list of acceptable bumper parts of which pins are not one.

There are 2 things wrong with these bumpers (that I can see, there may be more). As an LRI the color is the first issue. The build quality is is the second but higher in issues. I would not pass them as there is all of this loose, unattached fabric which will cause other robots and field elements to get in your bumpers.

The quality or lack of shows the effort and dedication a team places on themselves and the robot. Take the time and don't try to cut corners. Be proud of your robot.