Pedestal Delays

[bEdhEd]

It was also frustrating for our mentors refereeing since it's so hard to keep score and ref simultaneously. It was difficult for me at times to keep calm when there were one or two assists not being counted during a cycle, or multiple cycles, but you can't blame the refs or get angry at them. They just have way too much on their plate.

The most frustrating part of all is when you consider that all the teams devote hours and hours of their time to make their robot work, and spend so much of their funds to enter a competition; then they waste $300 to $500 in entry cost on a match where the loss was not the fault of any of the teams, but rather the field.

We also had delays with declaring dead balls at IE. On one our matches, the ball was stuck in our robot towards the beginning of the match, and the ball was not declared dead until up to around 30-40 seconds after we signaled that it was no good for play, and finally the match had to be restarted because of this.

We also had another match that started perfectly; the autonomous shots went in, and we were far ahead, until I started wondering why our human players weren't inbounding after the first cycle. What was the problem? The pedestal would not light at all, and there was a rematch, and then the pedestal was delayed, and then we had to do another rematch the next day.

[Hoover]

Originally Posted by Cam877

Yes, and this was not the only problem we had at mount olive. Many replays had to be done because of pedestal delays, including a quarterfinal match that ended up overturning the result of the series. This really needs to be amended. Great job at the competition this weekend by the way 4381!

Thanks, Cam877. And congratulations to team 11. Even though you didn't win your 3 match semi-final it could have easily gone your way.

Now I feel like a chump for not arguing the pedestal foul. First of all, the confusion altered the outcome of the game in some way. This was really a rematch situation and I should have protested it, assuming there is a way to do that. I did tell them that the light was on so that should have been enough.

The game is better than I first thought but we need smooth play and not these glitches.

[Libby K]

Originally Posted by Hoover

Thanks, Cam877. And congratulations to team 11. Even though you didn't win your 3 match semi-final it could have easily gone your way.

Now I feel like a chump for not arguing the pedestal foul. First of all, the confusion altered the outcome of the game in some way. This was really a rematch situation and I should have protested it, assuming there is a way to do that. I did tell them that the light was on so that should have been enough.

The game is better than I first thought but we need smooth play and not these glitches.

Hoover,

For future reference: Have a pre-college student on the drive team stand in the referee question box. That is the way to ask questions/clarifications/point out issues. For something like the pedestal issue, it's important to let the nearest referee/FTA know DURING the match.

The precedent at Mt. O was that the pedestal not lighting up correctly was an arena fault, and several matches in qualifications were replayed because of this. That's what Alliance 2 contested in the QFs, and one of the affected matches in the series was replayed. (QF 3-2 and 3-3 were both affected by pedestal issues, but since we didn't make it known in 2 -during- the match, it was not replayed. We made the field crew aware of it in 3, and QF 3-3 was replayed for that arena fault, overturning the series.)

[Hoover]

Originally Posted by Libby K

Hoover,

For future reference: Have a pre-college student on the drive team stand in the referee question box. That is the way to ask questions/clarifications/point out issues. For something like the pedestal issue, it's important to let the nearest referee/FTA know DURING the match.

Thanks Libby. This was in the earlier matches and we were still getting used to the game. I had one eye on the pedestal every match after that. I think we'd have been better off letting Jason throw the second ball on the field and then they'd have to had to investigate during the game.

As for having a student go to the question box... our alliances always pulled the control boards and left the field immediately. We had 2 instances of us winning in qualification and then an upset re-score occurring minutes after. We were half way back to the pits. I don't know what to do. I'm half way leaning to have the whole darned alliance stay put, arms crossed until the final scoring happens and then go as a unit (pre-college only) to the question box to at least get an explanation. That seems rather extreme.

I will say I was really really hoping for real time scoring this year and I am not getting it.

[Hallry]

Originally Posted by Libby K

The precedent at Mt. O was that the pedestal not lighting up correctly was an arena fault, and several matches in qualifications were replayed because of this. That's what Alliance 2 contested in the QFs, and one of the affected matches in the series was replayed. (QF 3-2 and 3-3 were both affected by pedestal issues, but since we didn't make it known in 2 -during- the match, it was not replayed. We made the field crew aware of it in 3, and QF 3-3 was replayed for that arena fault, overturning the series.)

However Libby, I hate to say that the reffing was not consistent with this. A 10 to 20-second pedestal delay affected our alliance in Semifinal Match 1-3, and one of the refs even said during the match to end it and replay it. However, the match went on (I guess the head ref maybe didn't see him? I don't know), and after our student drive coach went to the question box after the match, the head ref said, in short, "Too bad, we're not going to replay it, and if you had taken the ball off of the pedestal when it was not lit up but it should have been, I wouldn't have fouled you." How on earth we were supposed to know that though after other alliances had been penalized for touching the ball too early without the light on beforehand, I do not know. This was very upsetting, especially with the similar events prior matches resulting in the opposite, more logical course of action.

With all of these replays and scores changing after their displayed, I offer a suggestion: Show the score to the drive teams first. Then let them try to plead with what they may. After all things are finally worked out, then put them on the screen for the rest of the audience and the webcast to see. It would make it so much less dramatic.

Originally Posted by Hoover

As for having a student go to the question box... our alliances always pulled the control boards and left the field immediately. We had 2 instances of us winning in qualification and then an upset re-score occurring minutes after. We were half way back to the pits. I don't know what to do. I'm half way leaning to have the whole darned alliance stay put, arms crossed until the final scoring happens and then go as a unit (pre-college only) to the question box to at least get an explanation. That seems rather extreme.

Actually, this is almost exactly what you need to do. If a non pre-college student comes to my question box, I immediately send them away to get a student that I can talk to. What can be done is have a student representative of each team wait behind to find the score and contest anything if they deem it necessary. To my knowledge, there is no rule preventing mentors and adults from helping take the robot off the field or grab the drivers stations.

[Andy A.]

Originally Posted by tanmaker

To my knowledge, there is no rule preventing mentors and adults from helping take the robot off the field or grab the drivers stations.

The 'catch', if you can call it one, is that it's just about impossible to get near the field without a driver badge. Strictly speaking only the drive team (including the human player and in some cases the safety captain) are allowed on the field to move the robot. Some volunteers might let it slide, others won't.

Realistically, you send one of your drivers/human player to the question box. That's probably fine 99% of the time, since they presumably know the rules and what happened during the match, but it does mean you're down a drive team member for moving the robot. In the past I've had the driver in charge of the controls hang back if I thought there might be a problem, while I the other driver and human player handle the robot.

[McWilliamsK17]

At CIR (Central Illinois Regional) we had the same issue in the finals, it was frustrating. I hope at Wisconsin they have it fixed.

Originally Posted by Andy A.

The 'catch', if you can call it one, is that it's just about impossible to get near the field without a driver badge. Strictly speaking only the drive team (including the human player and in some cases the safety captain) are allowed on the field to move the robot. Some volunteers might let it slide, others won't.

I'm curious as to what rule you're referencing. The only rule regarding a coach is that they may not touch balls or controls during a match. Other than that, there are no rules preventing them from entering the field.

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by Andy A.

The 'catch', if you can call it one, is that it's just about impossible to get near the field without a driver badge. Strictly speaking only the drive team (including the human player and in some cases the safety captain) are allowed on the field to move the robot. Some volunteers might let it slide, others won't.

Realistically, you send one of your drivers/human player to the question box. That's probably fine 99% of the time, since they presumably know the rules and what happened during the match, but it does mean you're down a drive team member for moving the robot. In the past I've had the driver in charge of the controls hang back if I thought there might be a problem, while I the other driver and human player handle the robot.

4 students on the drive team. One goes to the question box, one takes the driver station to the cart and pulls that over, the other two get the robot. I don't see where the problem is...

[Hoover]

Originally Posted by Hallry

"Too bad, we're not going to replay it, and if you had taken the ball off of the pedestal when it was not lit up but it should have been, I wouldn't have fouled you." How on earth we were supposed to know that though after other alliances had been penalized for touching the ball too early without the light on beforehand, I do not know

You don't know because this in nonsense. The refs should be more angry about this than we are. They shouldn't have to make these kinds of decisions, the system should just work. I find it distressing they put this on you.

[Andy A.]

Originally Posted by tanmaker

I'm curious as to what rule you're referencing. The only rule regarding a coach is that they may not touch balls or controls during a match. Other than that, there are no rules preventing them from entering the field.

I'm not saying that a coach can't enter the field, only that you have 4 (sometimes 5) people available to handle the robot, only one of which can be a coach.

Again, I don't think it's ever really a problem getting a student in the question box and handling the robot, but you are limited to the drive team and have to get in the habit of having someone stay behind to ask questions if need be. It's not really problem but if you aren't planning for it it can be.

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

4 students on the drive team. One goes to the question box, one takes the driver station to the cart and pulls that over, the other two get the robot. I don't see where the problem is...

I don't either as long as you plan ahead for that. This year might be the first time that some teams have needed to use the question box, either because they are rookies or vets that just never have. I'm just pointing out that it's a good idea to leave a driver behind to ask questions incase something comes up.

[M.O'Reilly]

A related issue at Hatboro-Horsham was a ball going out of play (commonly over the goal, not through it) and it never being returned to play by field crew. Then the refs/pedestal operator know there is supposed to be a ball in play while there is none.

All I can say is this will get better at week 2 and 3 competitions.

[Hoover]

Originally Posted by Andy A.

I'm just pointing out that it's a good idea to leave a driver behind to ask questions incase something comes out.

Agreed, but it shows strength if one or more from each alliance stands together. One team had a foul in our quarter-final match that knocked us out. It was being contested but when we got there only one member of that team was in the box. The whole alliance is affected so it follows the whole alliance should be concerned.

[Jon Stratis]

Yes, the whole alliance should be concerned... but that doesn't mean you have to overwhelm the head ref with people. A persons natural reaction to facing a gang of upset people is defensive - you're less likely to get what you want if you send a bunch of people up there all at once to yammer at the head ref. The alliance should work on clearing out the field like they're supposed to, quickly and efficiently, so the next match can start like it's supposed to. If they are all concerned, they can respectfully wait by the exit from the arena to hear the result from the one well spoken student who went up to the question box. Trust me, the ref will see that the entire alliance is waiting for the answer, but he won't feel a need to immediately go on the defensive.