How can you help GDC make this game better?

[Gregor]

Originally Posted by bduddy

presumably the other refs had given credit for the score

That part definitely happened, as the lights on the high goal turned off.

[Squillo]

This:

Originally Posted by Wayne TenBrink

Proposed wording for updated rules on inbounding:

<Proposed G21> ROBOTS may not extend outside the HUMAN PLAYER BARRIER.

The current rule prohibits extension beyond the SAFETY ZONE. The HP barrier is the 20" wide zone above the field perimeter pipes.)

<Proposed G40> TEAMS may not extend any body part into the FIELD during the MATCH.

The current rule prohibits reaching beyond the SAFETY ZONE.

G41 (no HP/robot contact, no HP/Ball/Robot contact) should remain as is.

This would make the HP barrier a "transition/neutral zone" where either robots or HP's could reach, but there could be no contact between them. You still couldn't lay a ball directly into a robot.

I think the same objective could be accomplished by re-defining the SAFETY ZONE to match the HUMAN PLAYER BARRIER.

[Squillo]

AND This:

Originally Posted by Peter Matteson

I forgot my other idea that would make arguing with the refs over scoring for assists and trussing less of an issue when teams forget to clear the autonomous balls.

PUT A WHITE STRIPE AROUND THE AUTONOMOUS BALLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I can't tell you how many times teams on the field and people in the stands lost track of the fact that the ball being played was an auton ball that rebounded down the length of the field.

Just put a stripe on the ball so people can tell there is a difference.

[Gregor]

Originally Posted by Peter Matteson

I forgot my other idea that would make arguing with the refs over scoring for assists and trussing less of an issue when teams forget to clear the autonomous balls.

PUT A WHITE STRIPE AROUND THE AUTONOMOUS BALLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I can't tell you how many times teams on the field and people in the stands lost track of the fact that the ball being played was an auton ball that rebounded down the length of the field.

Just put a stripe on the ball so people can tell there is a difference.

It's really not that hard. If you've had possession of a ball and there are no lights on the high goal, then it's an autonomous ball. If your coach can't keep track of this, good luck to them when there are 6 robots and a red and blue ball in one tiny corner of the field. That's where it really gets fun (until 610 picks up the wrong ball ).

[TheMadCADer]

Red and Blue vests for Human Players so it's easier for field reset to get the ball to the right person. Don't make people think on the spot with people yelling, they'll screw up.

[Chris Hibner]

One thing I want to mention in regard to my previous posts in this thread: I think that the referees in Michigan do an outstanding job. I've watched the videos of a lot of matches from Southfield and I must say that Gary Voshol and his crew did a lot better job than I would've done. There were a few match videos that I watched that I was actually shocked at how well they did given the events of the match.

My issue is that the game this year and the current setup are flawed. Individuals are rarely to blame when errors begin to arise - you have to ask the 5 whys and figure out the real cause. It's almost always a systemic reason.

There were a number of great suggestions in this thread. I hope that some are implemented.

[Craig Roys]

Originally Posted by Chris Hibner

One thing I want to mention in regard to my previous posts in this thread: I think that the referees in Michigan do an outstanding job. I've watched the videos of a lot of matches from Southfield and I must say that Gary Voshol and his crew did a lot better job than I would've done. There were a few match videos that I watched that I was actually shocked at how well they did given the events of the match.

My issue is that the game this year and the current setup are flawed. Individuals are rarely to blame when errors begin to arise - you have to ask the 5 whys and figure out the real cause. It's almost always a systemic reason.

There were a number of great suggestions in this thread. I hope that some are implemented.

Agreed...none of my criticisms are on the refs themselves. They all are doing the best they can, but they are being put in a near impossible situation with too much to try and keep track of. There are a lot of situations where the end of play is seen and a call is made that seems correct to the ref, but when the entire play is taken into account it may not be. It's like in hockey when the retaliator (sp?) often is the one to get the penalty instead of the instigator.

[Duncan Macdonald]

Originally Posted by TheMadCADer

Red and Blue vests for Human Players so it's easier for field reset to get the ball to the right person. Don't make people think on the spot with people yelling, they'll screw up.

I subbed in for field reset over the weekend. Finding the HP is not the hard part, it's trying to follow the game while returning balls as fast as possible. If you dedicate a field resetter to standing at centre and pointing to the HP and directing the ball carrier when a ball left the field without being scored everything runs well.

[meaubry]

Having observed the ref's this past week end while sitting in the judge's chairs along side the field (great vantage point in some respects, lousy in others) my observations are as follows;
Things that don’t change the rules
1) corner refs cannot watch everything that is going on. If they are watching on field action, they cannot watch sideline line activity very well. In one match, a human player ran after the ball that bounced out of the field of play almost to the stands and back - Un-noticed by the ref - I asked about the rule after the match and the ref told me they didn't see it happen. I suggest getting additional ref's to monitor sideline infractions.

2) Robot extending into opposing robot - obviously in place to limit damage to other robots internal organs. If you designed a pick up device that extends (which most have to do to pick up the ball from the floor) - you knowingly chose to take a risk in doing so. I strongly advice, making sure the arm is retracted in your robot space while driving around in reckless abandon. These robots are really fast, interaction is going to occur - on purpose! Be smart and don't put yourself in a position to get a penalty - unless you don't care about getting them. And don't cry that you cannot retract the device - that should have been thought about, so go fix it.

3) add a couple posts extending upward in front of the refs to protect them from errant shot balls – the refs would not need to panic, flinch, or worry about getting hit - and it is a simple field change with some T couplings and pipe.

4) human player interaction penalities - LEARN the rules and stop doing stuff that might earn you an infraction - Like it or not, that can be fixed by training and practice - no excuses.

5) Mark the auto balls (as suggested - great idea)

Things that would change the rules
6) put a podium in each corner of the field, and always have a ball on each one of them at all times

7) make it the responsibility of the team human player to place the next ball into the next cycle - and if they mess up and have more than one ball out there at a time (shut off the signal to all of that alliance - game over for them) – only do this in conjunction with marking the auto balls and #6, plus you could eliminate podium lighting delay issues.

Have fun! Remember, it’s only week 1 – things will get better!
Mike

[barn34]

In my oppinion, making the following tweaks for week 2 will make a world's worth of difference.

1 - Like many have already mentioned, g40 calls have absolutely killed a lot of matches. 50 points is an absolute match killer. I completely understand the desire to keep human players safe, but I would recommend making a change so there isn't a penalty if the human player extends beyond the BACK of the human player zone to allow them natural full range of motion in loading balls. Many human players have arms that are long enough that it doesn't give them enough room to comfortably operate. This is one of the primary reasons for crossing into the safety zone and incurring the penalties, I feel. Allow them to guage where they need to place their feet in order to load balls as desired without crossing into the safety zone. Also, I would change it to a 20 point foul with a warning before hand. If you warn them to watch the safety zone and they still end up crossing it later in the match, then feel free to penalize. Just make sure they understand that they're doing something in the wrong so they don't keep doing it unaware they're crossing that invisible boundary and incurring fouls.

2 - Add in a score keeper for each alliance that also control the lighting of the pedestal. As soon as a ball scores, the points go up in real time and the pedestal lights. It's really a small problem that has an unfortunate ballooning impact on the game. Time is everything and the referees need to focus on the robot to robot interaction. Allow the score keepers to follow each ball and responsible for lighting that white barrel when a ball is cleared. Again, this echoes what many have said already.

3 - In terms of robot to robot interaction, make robot contact to anything inside bumper perimeters an immediate 20 point foul. Inconsequential or not. And it must be called. Every time. If the robot is a repeated offender or if any contact is a direct cause of immediate significant damage to another robot, that's a 50 point technical foul. That also needs to be called every time. This will make every team's drivers think twice about how they're going after playing defense and make them play it the proper way, the safe way, with focus on bumper to bumper contact only. This will make drivers retract intakes or orient their robots so collisions occur on sides where damage done by extremeties will be avoided. This will be a huge benefit to every robot's long term health this year and will also keep all participants safer. Hopefully, this will also discourage play that breaks down into glorified battle bots, resulting in very unwatchable contests. This game is a great one to watch when alliances are working that ball strategically across the field. I love the cooperation needed to play this game well and while defense is a big part of the strategic game, it can't be allowed to break matches down into a glorified robotic slug fest. Robots can't get away with blindly ramming away at each other and double (or even triple) teams on the same robot. This trickles into another rule, but blockading needs to probably be reworded (or at least enforced) so that the double and triple teams on one sole robot are eliminated or highly discouraged. We blew our main breaker in the match we were eliminated at CIR trying to work through the double and triple teams of the other alliance pushing against us in attempts to keep us from getting that ball up. Strategically, it was smart, but very very frustrating to play and didn't make for a fun match to watch either. I don't think that is what the GDC intended, at all, I'm sure.

I do feel this game has a lot of potential if something is done to eliminate some of the above concerns. Hopefully, a rules change/update/focus allows for the real potential of this game to shine through moving forward the rest of the season.

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by barn34

Robots can't get away with blindly ramming away at each other and double (or even triple) teams on the same robot. This trickles into another rule, but blockading needs to probably be reworded (or at least enforced) so that the double and triple teams on one sole robot are eliminated or highly discouraged. We blew our main breaker in the match we were eliminated at CIR trying to work through the double and triple teams of the other alliance pushing against us in attempts to keep us from getting that ball up. Strategically, it was smart, but very very frustrating to play and didn't make for a fun match to watch either. I don't think that is what the GDC intended, at all, I'm sure.

Quite frankly, I don't think it's the other teams that are playing the game wrong. The GDC has made sure to emphasize teamwork and passing in this game, from the name to the game animation to the scoring system, and if you can't figure out how to get through a triple-team, then you're just not getting the message. The rule you're quoting to try to ban this strategy you don't like says nothing even remotely similar to what you think it means:

G25

ROBOTS on the same ALLIANCE may not blockade the FIELD in an attempt to stop the flow of the MATCH. This rule has no effect on individual ROBOT-ROBOT interaction.

If you have the ball and don't pass it, then the only one stopping the flow of the match is you.