Game Manual - Team UPDATE - 2014-03-04

[Jared Russell]

Originally Posted by IndySam

Scorekeeper , ref and software changes would not be reflected in an update, that is not what they are for.

I would hope that a blog would be upcoming to help explain what other changes would have been made on these points.

Exactly. Any hour now I am going to click on over to the home page and see a new post by Hallry linking to an FRC Blog that makes everything better.

[Electronica1]

I just realized the change to G40 does not really change anything, the only time you would cross the line is when you are tossing it to your robot, which would be adjacent to the station...

Or am I just reading this wrong?

[JosephC]

Originally Posted by Electronica1

I just realized the change to G40 does not really change anything, the only time you would cross the line is when you are tossing it to your robot, which would be adjacent to the station...

Or am I just reading this wrong?

Its my understanding that you can extend past the tape as long as there is no robot extending past the edge of the field. I could be completely wrong though.

[Jay O'Donnell]

Originally Posted by JosephC

Its my understanding that you can extend past the tape as long as there is no robot extending past the edge of the field. I could be completely wrong though.

I interpreted it the same way. Not sure what human player would go over the field when no robot was around anyways. Train your human players.

[mman1506]

Originally Posted by Jay O'Donnell

I interpreted it the same way. Not sure what human player would go over the field when no robot was around anyways. Train your human players.

I saw 610's human player foul numerous times when catching the ball from the volunteers.

[Bob Steele]

It took a little analysis but the new rule does help

First and the biggest thing.... is that UNLESS a robot is reaching over the side of the field.... a human player can use the entire zone up to the field edge. You can't reach in at any time but you can extend right up to it.

The limitation occurs when you have an adjacent robot that is REACHING OVER the side line. THEN if the robot is close you cannot enter the Safety Zone.

This means that if your robot is sitting in front of you and NOT extended outside the field you can reach up to the side line (but not onto the field)

This is eminently reasonable... it allows a robot to extend slightly over the side of the field and then it protects the human player by moving his legal zone back only during the time the robot is reaching outside the field.

This is a good change. If anyone really expected that they would allow human players to reach into the field they were dreaming. This is a good and safe change... I applaud the GDC for the quick action which both protects the students and allows for a better game with less fouls

[orangemoore]

I think the changes made to the manual are appropriate but now the next step is to see how they respond to the non rule issues that are problems. Hopefully the FMS issues are reduced.
This year so far I feel bad for refs because of how hard their job is this year and how difficult it is to be in that position.

[2789_B_Garcia]

This change to G28 is aggravating. Over the course of three matches, the top half of our robot was ripped off of our frame because other teams were driving around with their collectors out as we were trying to defend against them, and some of them even appeared to deploy their collector into our frame while there was no ball around to collect. We cited G28, and no penalties were given to the other teams. We got fed up trying to repair our robot and finally just put pool noodles and gaffers tape on it to prevent from accidentally possessing an opponents ball...

Now with the rule change, if another robot damages our robot inside our frame perimeter, we'll be told that our robot's actions were the "catalyst" for the damage because we were playing defense...which means we not only extend beyond our frame perimeter at our own risk, we also drive at our own risk, as well. Last week, we saw debris all over the field, electrical components being ripped out of robots, and now the rules change says that it's our fault if we are playing defense?

I love playing defense, but I don't want to play battlebots, and now it seems that if I'm playing with a robot that has high-scoring capability, I can deploy mechanisms and extend as I wish because if it destroys a defending robot, it was their fault, however, as a defensive-oriented robot with a simple collector, if I extend my collector and it violates the frame perimeter of a high-scoring capable robot, would the same call be made?

I love this game. It was designed for teams like mine. Teams that want to contribute to an alliance, but don't have the manufacturing capability, resources or mentors to pull off some of the powerhouse robots we have seen...and I'm not bitter to any of the teams that can pull it off...our team sees them as sources of inspiration and we learn so much from our interactions with these teams...this years game held so much hope for our team because we interpreted the game such that FIRST had finally gotten coopertition right, and had designed a game in which small teams like us could make a big difference in matches. Now I feel like if we don't drive a solid block of metal on wheels around at our next event, it'll be our fault if anything happens to it.

[Woolly]

Originally Posted by 2789_B_Garcia

Now with the rule change, if another robot damages our robot inside our frame perimeter, we'll be told that our robot's actions were the "catalyst" for the damage because we were playing defense...which means we not only extend beyond our frame perimeter at our own risk, we also drive at our own risk, as well. Last week, we saw debris all over the field, electrical components being ripped out of robots, and now the rules change says that it's our fault if we are playing defense?

I'm not sure that's how the rule will be interpreted.
I'm seeing it being more like this:
If you drive into a protrusion that's already out and damage your robot, that's your fault.
However, if the offensive robot extends their protrusion just because you're trying to play defense (there is not a ball around to pick up), then I don't see how you're the catalyst for the damage. In all likelihood, both robots would be fine if the offensive bot keeps it's arm in. Due to the actions of the offensive robot, the damage occurs. G28, damaging or delibrate contact to the inside of the frame perimeter, offensive robot, technical foul, 50 points added to the defensive bot's alliance's score, continue play.

[martin417]

Originally Posted by Bob Steele

It took a little analysis but the new rule does help

First and the biggest thing.... is that UNLESS a robot is reaching over the side of the field.... a human player can use the entire zone up to the field edge. You can't reach in at any time but you can extend right up to it.

The limitation occurs when you have an adjacent robot that is REACHING OVER the side line. THEN if the robot is close you cannot enter the Safety Zone.

This means that if your robot is sitting in front of you and NOT extended outside the field you can reach up to the side line (but not onto the field)

This is eminently reasonable... it allows a robot to extend slightly over the side of the field and then it protects the human player by moving his legal zone back only during the time the robot is reaching outside the field.

This is a good change. If anyone really expected that they would allow human players to reach into the field they were dreaming. This is a good and safe change... I applaud the GDC for the quick action which both protects the students and allows for a better game with less fouls

I think you are misinterpreting the rule. A robot CANNOT reach over the edge of the field per G21.

The way I see it, if a robot is there at all (adjacent to the HP zone) you cannot break the plane of the safety zone. It could even be an opposing robot, there just so you have to keep your hands back.

[Christopher149]

Originally Posted by martin417

I think you are misinterpreting the rule. A robot CANNOT reach over the edge of the field per G21.

The way I see it, if a robot is there at all (adjacent to the HP zone) you cannot break the plane of the safety zone. It could even be an opposing robot, there just so you have to keep your hands back.

Well, with no opinion on G21, the pictures in Figure 3-7 all show the ROBOT with an appendage sticking past the GUARDRAIL, but not past the SAFETY ZONE.

[ToddF]

Once upon a time, the edge of the field was the inviolable barrier. Robots that crossed it got technical fouls. Players who crossed it go technical fouls. Everything was clearly defined, and the barrier was clear.

Week 0 events revealed that many robots were crossing the edge of the field with their appendages, and big foul points resulted. The GDC then reduced the penalty for crossing the field boundary to a regular foul, and came up with a new inviolable barrier: the boundary of the safety zone. As we saw in the week 1 events, resulted in whole bunch of penalties. This was primarily due to the face that human players can't easily judge where the tape line is.

The new rule change keeps the same graduated level of penalties for robots, foul for crossing the field barrier and technical foul for crossing the safety zone boundary. But it moves the barrier for the human players back to the edge of the field, EXCEPT when there is a robot already sticking into the safety zone.

[Nate Laverdure]

Originally Posted by ToddF

Once upon a time, the edge of the field was the inviolable barrier. Robots that crossed it got technical fouls. Players who crossed it go technical fouls. Everything was clearly defined, and the barrier was clear.

Counterexample: 2005



EDIT: nevermind, you must be talking about this year.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by martin417

I think you are misinterpreting the rule. A robot CANNOT reach over the edge of the field per G21.

The way I see it, if a robot is there at all (adjacent to the HP zone) you cannot break the plane of the safety zone. It could even be an opposing robot, there just so you have to keep your hands back.

The issue is what defines "adjacent"? Hanging over the guardrail? Touching the guardrail? A foot away? Three feet? In the same zone?

[BigJ]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

The issue is what defines "adjacent"? Hanging over the guardrail? Touching the guardrail? A foot away? Three feet? In the same zone?

Check out my post earlier in the thread, I sussed out a definition that seems to fit the wording and the pictures. I think that's all we have to go on at this point

I agree it could have been written "better" but I am of the belief that it is cleanly explained in the text and pictures.