Disappointing Game

[RogerR]

Originally Posted by Kafri2630

...
Being disappointed is fine and mabye the game will show us some awasome things in the next weeks, but the disappointment in here is big because it was week 1 and we have no other opportunity...

I noticed several posts mentioning the unfairness of Israeli teams going to only one regional. Its worth noting that this is the case for the majority of FRC teams the world over, including many (most?) that played in week one events. According to Mark's data (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...&postcount=297) only about a third of teams attend multiple events, counting districts. Outside of districts, nearly 75% of teams attend only one event. Until districts become universal, yours isn't a unique situation.

[who716]

im one of the people who would prefer every robot against each other and no team, I like games where one robot can win the whole match by themselves like the last 4 years, I don't really like relaying the fate of a match on other people within my alliance I want to rely on myself only

[Kafri2630]

Originally Posted by RogerR

I noticed several posts mentioning the unfairness of Israeli teams going to only one regional. Its worth noting that this is the case for the majority of FRC teams the world over, including many (most?) that played in week one events. According to Mark's data (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...&postcount=297) only about a third of teams attend multiple events, counting districts. Outside of districts, nearly 75% of teams attend only one event. Until districts become universal, yours isn't a unique situation.

An avarge of 30 teams in the israeli regional from year 2005, thats 30 * 10 = 300 robots.
only 1 of those robots was in 2 regionals, it's 99.67% of the robots in israel that only compete once.

If 75% of the teams are participating in 1 regional, statisticly 14% of them are in week 1, and they have a choice(altruogh some for sure have problems with that too).

Does my efforts count less?
I gave everything for the build season and the preparation earlier, why should it end that way?
My team grows and does great work growing to become champions somewhen, we were very close last year if someone checked it out,
but together with trying to do our best we will keep the criticism to try getting FIRST forward.

[yarden.saa]

The thread is going into a direction I didn't mean. Not the chances given to every team is matter, not the result, but the message the students are getting. Teams that are competing in week 1 should get the same message as week 6 and 7. The message should be FIRST goals/mission that the best robot, the most inspirational, the most engineered robot may win is not passing to the students when more than 50 % ( don't catch me on how exactly) is about strategy which relaies on other teams and less on your own team R&D that should led into a great working robots that score points.
The best robots do win at the end but the seeding system is not showing that because of the assist, fouls and defencive game.

[shhrz]

Originally Posted by yarden.saa

(...) We didn't have good robots in our alliances at the qualification matches (all 10 matches). We were not able to do a single assist because our alliance mates were not able to get a ball and pass it.

The message should be FIRST goals/mission that the best robot, the most inspirational, the most engineered robot may win is not passing to the students <cut the rest>

I think it was pretty obvious that the 2 best teams overall in Israel this year were 3316 and 1574. And they did win... At the end of the day, 1574 ranked 25 in quals because of bad "luck", but were good enough on the field that they got selected as the 1st choice of the 1st seed (that would be 3316)...

About having bad partners in all 10 matches... the disrespect that screams from that statement aside, mabye if it happened in ALL 10 matches, the issue was not with the partners...

On the technical side of things, I just have to say that FIRST needs to get it together.. you cannot have the FMS crash during practice day for about 4 hours with teams yearning for play time, plenty of matches replayed (including F1, which was replayed but the FMS already tweeted a blue win. The rematch was then won by Red which won 2-1 in the Finals), and so on... They have a year to get ready with what I'm assuming is a pretty big budget... things like that should not happen, regardless of which regional you are at. I know things will never be prefect, but things like this happen, sadly, too frequently.

(And as a side note, that obviously is not a spite at the volunteers and the folks over at the Israeli regional, who gave it all they had and then some more, doing great work on fixing the issues on practice day, and in general - giving a great experience overall )

[MichaelBick]

Seeding has always been inaccurate because of the limited amount of matches. Furthermore, practice and strategy has always been an important part of winning in any sport, not just FIRST.

Being at the regional, I don't think that you can argue that your fate was totally up to bad luck. We together would have won our last match had the ball been put in the low goal instead of you missing the high goal. Making this would have not only given you 30 more assist points, but you would have also seeded 8th. Similarly, we seeded 11th instead of 3rd.

Implementation has always been one of the most important parts of FIRST, and that includes what happens AT the competition. If you don't like this part of how FIRST works, I'm sure there are many other competitions that have a much more definite outcome.

[shhrz]

Originally Posted by MichaelBick

Seeding has always been inaccurate because of the limited amount of matches. Furthermore, practice and strategy has always been an important part of winning in any sport, not just FIRST.

Being at the regional, I don't think that you can argue that your fate was totally up to bad luck. We together would have won our last match had the ball been put in the low goal instead of you missing the high goal. Making this would have not only given you 30 more assist points, but you would have also seeded 8th. Similarly, we seeded 11th instead of 3rd.

Implementation has always been one of the most important parts of FIRST, and that includes what happens AT the competition. If you don't like this part of how FIRST works, I'm sure there are many other competitions that have a much more definite outcome.

Well said Hope to see you guys back next year, with another slick robot

Good luck at your next regional! We'll be hoping you win again in your 2nd regional, after the Israeli one haha

[Jaxom]

Originally Posted by pntbll1313

Depends on your strategy, the highest score of week 1 was played that way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUi8Z...ature=youtu.be

If you'd played that match in elims at Central Illinois the score would have been very different. 1772 would have been being pounded by at least one, if not two, of the red robots & probably wouldn't have been staying in place to be able to catch. The inbounding wouldn't have been as smooth either. And I didn't see anyone slamming into the shooting robot.

By the third match of the finals at CIR we were the only bot that was shooting, but we certainly weren't playing 1 on 3. Without 525's assists & ability to provide picks to strip off defenders (ditto 4296 until it got tipped over) the outcome would have been very different.

I'm not saying the blue alliance didn't have good robots or a good strategy; 1772's catching looked sweet and 3284 looked really solid. But the red alliance played very ineffective defense, and that contributed to the score. Your strategy is important, but so is the other alliance's.

[shhrz]

Originally Posted by RogerR

I noticed several posts mentioning the unfairness of Israeli teams going to only one regional. Its worth noting that this is the case for the majority of FRC teams the world over, including many (most?) that played in week one events. According to Mark's data (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...&postcount=297) only about a third of teams attend multiple events, counting districts. Outside of districts, nearly 75% of teams attend only one event. Until districts become universal, yours isn't a unique situation.

Honestly, I think that is an unaccurate assessment. I think the situation in Israel IS in fact unique (with the only other one being Hawaii. The few other FRC teams that are not North America based do not have a local regional and so it's a different story altogether)... I think the main issue is that the expenses for Israeli/Hawaiian teams wishing to go to another regional are far greater than those of any Contintental American/Canadian team doing the same (For the pure reason of the flights for all students, and getting visas (which costs money)).

When you pay 950+ USD per ticket for 25(ish) students and mentors, that is about 28,500 USD. And that is just for flying the team to New York. I Won't talk about the further expenses if you reach the Championships... nor the other expenses that are issues for ALL teams going to another regional (transportaion, accomodation, food ect.), but you get the point. Without disrespecting other teams and their fundraising programs, it's a completely different ballgame.

What I think this post/comments are aiming for, is that it is difficult to have a game that is still glitchy (and I take nothing away from 3316/1574/3065, who were affected just like everone else ofc.), when you have no option to play again, due to the sheer amount of money needed for Israeli/Hawaiian teams to make it to another regional.

HOWEVER, I think that is just how the cookie crumbles. I see no viable solution in the near future and I don't think there is any blame to pass around in terms of the scheduling of the regional (there were no other good dates).

At the end of the day, TikiTech summed it up nicely: "Be proud of what you have accomplished." And start your preperations for next season

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by yarden.saa

The thread is going into a direction I didn't mean. Not the chances given to every team is matter, not the result, but the message the students are getting. Teams that are competing in week 1 should get the same message as week 6 and 7. The message should be FIRST goals/mission that the best robot, the most inspirational, the most engineered robot may win is not passing to the students when more than 50 % ( don't catch me on how exactly) is about strategy which relaies on other teams and less on your own team R&D that should led into a great working robots that score points.
The best robots do win at the end but the seeding system is not showing that because of the assist, fouls and defencive game.

I'm going to be counterpoint here.

As a 13 year mentor, this is my first year that my sole regional is not a week 1 regional (I was at GSR every year until this year). I agree that it is frustrating when the game is 'fixed' after week 1. That being said, this is not about the competition, or the robot. If the kids have been inspired, all is good.

Now on th the seeding system... This years game is an alliance centric game. This means that scouting and strategy BEFORE each match is critical. Understanding what your alliance partners are capable of (or even if they are going to show up) and tailoring your strategy/tactics to utilize their abilities to the most is what will win matches. I truely believe that this year most matches will be won at the strategy sessions (with your alliance) BEFORE the match is started. Hence, you are correct, that the best ROBOTs may not seed well, but the best (mostly) stratigists will. I do not think this is bad, but it is different from years past.

Also, about defense... It's been a number of years since defense has been allowed to play all out. Most years there are safe zones, and such. Without those rules the defense this year will be brutal. Defenses are allowed to be as agressive as the offensive robots have been for years, and some teams have not properly prepared for it. Game strategy is not always about scoring and offense, and this year playing defense (especially if you are designed for it) may be just as effective (or more so).

JM(NS)HO

[rei.henigman]

I must agree with yarden.
The alliance picks reveal everything:
first pick - 1574 - ranked 25
second - 3339 - ranked 18
third - 4320 - ranked 16
fourth - 1577 - ranked 9
fifth - 5038 - ranked 20
and the picks were very good, really close to our scouting.
the OPRs are pretty close to be true this time.

[ttedrow]

FIRST is not looking for the "best" robot. FIRST is looking for the "best" teams that can work together to understand all aspects of the game. Then design on build a robot that will be a asset to the many alliances they will be paired with during the qualification rounds. Then the "Best" teams will make it into the elimination rounds where "best" alliance will prevail.
If FIRST wanted to find the best robot, they would have a one on one robot matches and the teamwork would not matter.

[IronicDeadBird]

While I didn't really get a chance to read too many posts I will admit this. Even if I hate this years game, it does a good job of making rookie and new teams feel like they are welcome to join the fray.
If you make it too complex for the rookie teams then the amount of new teams signing up will be reduced significantly, if its too simple then this forum will happen.
Its a fine balance and I look forward to seeing what FRC learns from this years game when they put together future games.

[Dival]

As a couch in this year's game, I have to say that I hate my job. I've spent 45 days building the robot, and I want them to count for my winning, not the 2 days of competition. On the other hand, games also should be fun to watch, and a game which involves strategy makes great show for the audience (though in my opinion an amazing robot showcasing is always better). FIRST should work on balancing those ideals, and I think this year they went a little too extreme on the "strategy and communication" side.

Originally Posted by IronicDeadBird

While I didn't really get a chance to read too many posts I will admit this. Even if I hate this years game, it does a good job of making rookie and new teams feel like they are welcome to join the fray.
If you make it too complex for the rookie teams then the amount of new teams signing up will be reduced significantly, if its too simple then this forum will happen.
Its a fine balance and I look forward to seeing what FRC learns from this years game when they put together future games.

I don't agree with you, I think last year's game done this job much better. In it 2013 was much easier to complete a basic robot (shooter and 1st stage climber) but also featured challenges for the veteran teams (ground pickup, 3rd stage climbing). This year, on the other hand, most teams could not manege to complete all game challenges successfully due to the harder challenge.
I am not saying that this is not a good challenge, but these are the facts. What I do say is that teams that did manege to complete the challenge could find themselves low in the seeding due to their alliances.

Originally Posted by Dival

I don't agree with you, I think last year's game done this job much better. In it 2013 was much easier to complete a basic robot (shooter and 1st stage climber) but also featured challenges for the veteran teams (ground pickup, 3rd stage climbing). This year, on the other hand, most teams could not manege to complete all game challenges successfully due to the harder challenge.
I am not saying that this is not a good challenge, but these are the facts. What I do say is that teams that did manege to complete the challenge could find themselves low in the seeding due to their alliances.

And I'll disagree with you. This year, a team can build a kit bot with absolutely no appendage, and still have a major effect on the game. That box bot can play hard defense, and week 1 has shown us that defense can be the difference between winning and losing. That bot can even score in the low goals, possess the ball, and give assists. Last year, a box bot was almost useless without some sort of appendage to hang or score low goals. And defense was nearly impossible because of all the safe zone.

So without a doubt, a very inexperienced rookie team can still build a robot and have just as good of a chance as anyone else.

I'm truly sorry that the Israel regional did not go according to plan. But that is the risk one takes with a week 1 event. I won't blame anyone, but I think that if it were to have been even a week 2 regional, the outcome would have been much more positive for all teams involved.