Were to store practice bot at regional?

[BBray_T1296]

I had actually not noticed that particular rule before.


I will say though it is a very popular strategy which I doubt will be ceased this year by teams I see doing this year after year.

[ToddF]

Originally Posted by BBray_T1296

I will say though it is a very popular strategy which I doubt will be ceased this year by teams I see doing this year after year.

FIRST could make this issue go away if they just issued a rule clarification that the 45 pounds of withholding allowance must be located within the pit at the time a team opens their bagged robot.

There will always be a point in your FIRST experience when you realize you can get away with something that is against the rules. It is at that point when you have a choice to make about your own personal ethics, and what sort of example you will set for your students.

Now, if you are convinced that teams at the regionals you attend are knowingly flaunting the withholding rules, you do have several options.
- What should work: Talk to the coach of the team personally. Explain that you noticed that they seem to be violating a rule. Show them a printout of the rule and the QA response. In a perfect world, just knowing that someone is watching will motivate them to change their behavior.
- The theoretically correct way: Report them to the head referee before competition starts and hope the situation is corrected.
- The nasty way: Video record them removing fabricated robot parts from their trailer and bringing them into the arena. After their next match, send a student with a laptop to the question box. Play the video for the referee and request that the team be cited for breaking the withholding rule. Because they used an illegal part, their robot technically hasn't passed inspection. Since they played without passing inspection, their entire alliance gets a red card.
- The non-confrontational way: Do nothing. Hope that eventually karma will catch up to them.
- The way that sets the worst possible example for your students: Do the same thing, because, "Everybody does it, and if they can do it, we can too."

Looking at it from the other side, the violators may truly not know they are doing anything wrong. A few couple years ago, we took a shaft back to our hotel. During a team meeting in the lobby, we used a needle file to fit a key to the shaft keyway. I know we were observed doing this by other teams walking past, but no one said anything. A couple weeks later, I came across the rule that said all work must be performed in the pits. I was mortified, and won't let anything like that happen ever again. But I wish someone had let us know that we were breaking a rule. It's easy to assume other people are willingly doing something wrong when that might not be the case.

[Chris is me]

Keep the practice robot offsite (in a trailer, at the shop, whatever). If you need things from it AND you have the weight to spare, go get your parts off of it, bring them in, make a note of how much they weighed and how much weight you have left, and don't go over.

I don't see this as violating any rules, spirit or otherwise. You still have the same limits as everyone else. Teams have done this for years. You only get access to 45 pounds of stuff, you jut choose what stuff to use when you need it.

[notmattlythgoe]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

Keep the practice robot offsite (in a trailer, at the shop, whatever). If you need things from it AND you have the weight to spare, go get your parts off of it, bring them in, make a note of how much they weighed and how much weight you have left, and don't go over.

I don't see this as violating any rules, spirit or otherwise. You still have the same limits as everyone else. Teams have done this for years. You only get access to 45 pounds of stuff, you jut choose what stuff to use when you need it.

Like I said before, I don't think this falls under the "static" definition. While at the competition, your 45 lb witholding allowance is now changing dynamically each time you bring in a new part. With that said, my word is in no way official, and I would ask the inspector at the competition if what you are doing falls under the rules.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by notmattlythgoe

Like I said before, I don't think this falls under the "static" definition. While at the competition, your 45 lb witholding allowance is now changing dynamically each time you bring in a new part. With that said, my word is in no way official, and I would ask the inspector at the competition if what you are doing falls under the rules.

The set is static, you just don't define the set at unbag time. Ie if 45 pounds got me 4 assemblies, once we bring these in we cannot exchange them for other parts wherever we get them.

[notmattlythgoe]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

The set is static, you just don't define the set at unbag time. Ie if 45 pounds got me 4 assemblies, once we bring these in we cannot exchange them for other parts wherever we get them.

static set of FABRICATED ITEMS that shall not exceed 45 lbs

That set exceeds 45 lbs though and by your description would be illegal. And by not defining them at unbag time you are creating a dynamic set that can change.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by notmattlythgoe

That set exceeds 45 lbs though and by your description would be illegal. And by not defining them at unbag time you are creating a dynamic set that can change.

My interpretation of "static set" is that you cannot go back and say "oh, this item we didn't need doesn't count anymore, so this other item counts". As in "once it's in, it's in." Your interpretation has a lot of consequences, such as teams never being able to bring in parts they forgot on Thursday, and requiring all of the items enter the venue at the exact same time.

But for the sake of argument let's use your interpretation - you must define this set of items once and it will remain that way. What if you bring in zero pounds of items and then define the set once you go to your trailer / shop / whatever in one fell swoop?

[notmattlythgoe]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

My interpretation of "static set" is that you cannot go back and say "oh, this item we didn't need doesn't count anymore, so this other item counts". As in "once it's in, it's in." Your interpretation has a lot of consequences, such as teams never being able to bring in parts they forgot on Thursday, and requiring all of the items enter the venue at the exact same time.

But for the sake of argument let's use your interpretation - you must define this set of items once and it will remain that way. What if you bring in zero pounds of items and then define the set once you go to your trailer / shop / whatever in one fell swoop?

We have always brought in our withholding allowance when we brought in our robot, so maybe that is skewing my interpretation of the rule. I would obviously use better judgement than "Oh you forgot a part you meant to bring, sucks to be you" but I could very well be wrong in my interpretation. In my opinion you have an intended set of parts that you plan on bringing to the competition and that set of parts should not exceed the 45 lb allowance. And I want to make sure to put it out there that I am in no way calling anybody a cheater, misinterpretations happen and rules are missed every year, I don't think anybody that is doing this is doing it knowing they are doing it illegally.

[Steve W]

This rule applies to manufactured parts. There is no limit on COTS items.

[Ian Curtis]

It all just seems a little bit silly. We have a 6 week build season because FIRST "likes us", but we have to build an entire second robot to have adequate practice time, and then to actually bring spares or upgrades to an event we need to fabricate another 1/3 of our robot or disassemble and reassemble our robot after every event?

Originally Posted by JamesCH95

That's not what I'm saying. Please don't overreact until you understand what I mean.

I'm saying that you will be under the honor system that you've pre-selected your 45lbs of withholding and won't go to your shop to take advantage of resources and spare parts that other teams don't have access to.

To clarify, its okay for any team to bring their practice robot, so long as they write out a list of which parts they are declaring as part of their withholding allowance?

[JamesCH95]

Originally Posted by Ian Curtis

It all just seems a little bit silly. We have a 6 week build season because FIRST "likes us", but we have to build an entire second robot to have adequate practice time, and then to actually bring spares or upgrades to an event we need to fabricate another 1/3 of our robot or disassemble and reassemble our robot after every event?



To clarify, its okay for any team to bring their practice robot, so long as they write out a list of which parts they are declaring as part of their withholding allowance?

In my opinion that would be okay, provided that the team could prove that those parts weigh less than 45lbs.

The 45lbs of witholding allowance isn't allowing you to use up to 45lbs of any pre-fab stuff, it's that you can bring up to 45 of pre-fab stuff. So, conceivably, you have to plan that allowance out

Bringing a practice robot and stripping any <45lbs of stuff off it isn't the same as having to have brought <45lbs of stuff with you from the start. This is the core difference of interpretation that most people are having here. I think that FIRST intends for us to have pre-selected that 45lbs of stuff, but Q&A is the only way to clarify this. Again, everyone is under the honor system in this rule, especially teams based at (or near) event venues.

[Steve W]

Originally Posted by Ian Curtis

It all just seems a little bit silly. We have a 6 week build season because FIRST "likes us", but we have to build an entire second robot to have adequate practice time, and then to actually bring spares or upgrades to an event we need to fabricate another 1/3 of our robot or disassemble and reassemble our robot after every event?



To clarify, its okay for any team to bring their practice robot, so long as they write out a list of which parts they are declaring as part of their withholding allowance?

You are allowed only 1 robot at the event, period.

[wilsonmw04]

Originally Posted by Steve W

You are allowed only 1 robot at the event, period.

Please define the "event." This is the ultimate issue. I think the arena is the event not the parking lot.

[JohnBoucher]

Originally Posted by Steve W

You are allowed only 1 robot at the event, period.

Where is the like button? Listen to what Steve is saying.

[martin417]

Originally Posted by Steve W

You are allowed only 1 robot at the event, period.

In the past, we have brought lots of "stuff" and kept it in the trailer. Some of that stuff might have been past year's bots, this year's practice bot or parts of bots. There was no intention to use any of the fabricated items, but to have raw material and attached COTS items available, not just for our team, but for teams that came up and asked "have you guys got any (fill in the blank)". An old bot has motors, gearboxes, channel, angle, screws, nuts, etc. that could be useful to our team or any other team that needs parts or raw material.

If I take a piece of an arm off of last year's (or this year's) bot, cut it to length or dill a hole in it to make it a brace for the competition bot, I simply used some of the unlimited amount of raw materials I am allowed to bring.

You guys need to loosen up.