Were to store practice bot at regional?

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by notmattlythgoe

That set exceeds 45 lbs though and by your description would be illegal. And by not defining them at unbag time you are creating a dynamic set that can change.

My interpretation of "static set" is that you cannot go back and say "oh, this item we didn't need doesn't count anymore, so this other item counts". As in "once it's in, it's in." Your interpretation has a lot of consequences, such as teams never being able to bring in parts they forgot on Thursday, and requiring all of the items enter the venue at the exact same time.

But for the sake of argument let's use your interpretation - you must define this set of items once and it will remain that way. What if you bring in zero pounds of items and then define the set once you go to your trailer / shop / whatever in one fell swoop?

[notmattlythgoe]

Originally Posted by BigJ

Your hyperbole and continued assumption of the "spirit" of this rule aren't really helping the conversation.

You are free to operate in your own frame of reference, but not to judge others operating outside of yours. The truth is none of us will know the real answer to the question until a specific Q&A question is asked and answered.

True, there seems to be a misinterpretation on one side or the other and I'd be interested in knowing the intent of the rule.

[D_Price]

I have two words to add. Always remember "gracious professionalism" whether in FRC or wherever it carries over into the real world.

[JamesCH95]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

So you're telling me that 125 needs to make sure we only have 45 lbs of spare parts in our lab for Northeastern because our lab is AT the venue? Yeah lemme get right on NOT doing that.

Of course, I've always felt the 45 lbs is upgrade parts. 1 to 1 replacement parts shouldn't count since they are functionally equivalent to parts you bagged. (This isn't how the rule is, it's just how I think it should be)

That's not what I'm saying. Please don't overreact until you understand what I mean.

I'm saying that you will be under the honor system that you've pre-selected your 45lbs of withholding and won't go to your shop to take advantage of resources and spare parts that other teams don't have access to.

[notmattlythgoe]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

My interpretation of "static set" is that you cannot go back and say "oh, this item we didn't need doesn't count anymore, so this other item counts". As in "once it's in, it's in." Your interpretation has a lot of consequences, such as teams never being able to bring in parts they forgot on Thursday, and requiring all of the items enter the venue at the exact same time.

But for the sake of argument let's use your interpretation - you must define this set of items once and it will remain that way. What if you bring in zero pounds of items and then define the set once you go to your trailer / shop / whatever in one fell swoop?

We have always brought in our withholding allowance when we brought in our robot, so maybe that is skewing my interpretation of the rule. I would obviously use better judgement than "Oh you forgot a part you meant to bring, sucks to be you" but I could very well be wrong in my interpretation. In my opinion you have an intended set of parts that you plan on bringing to the competition and that set of parts should not exceed the 45 lb allowance. And I want to make sure to put it out there that I am in no way calling anybody a cheater, misinterpretations happen and rules are missed every year, I don't think anybody that is doing this is doing it knowing they are doing it illegally.

[Steve W]

This rule applies to manufactured parts. There is no limit on COTS items.

[Ian Curtis]

It all just seems a little bit silly. We have a 6 week build season because FIRST "likes us", but we have to build an entire second robot to have adequate practice time, and then to actually bring spares or upgrades to an event we need to fabricate another 1/3 of our robot or disassemble and reassemble our robot after every event?

Originally Posted by JamesCH95

That's not what I'm saying. Please don't overreact until you understand what I mean.

I'm saying that you will be under the honor system that you've pre-selected your 45lbs of withholding and won't go to your shop to take advantage of resources and spare parts that other teams don't have access to.

To clarify, its okay for any team to bring their practice robot, so long as they write out a list of which parts they are declaring as part of their withholding allowance?

[JamesCH95]

Originally Posted by Ian Curtis

It all just seems a little bit silly. We have a 6 week build season because FIRST "likes us", but we have to build an entire second robot to have adequate practice time, and then to actually bring spares or upgrades to an event we need to fabricate another 1/3 of our robot or disassemble and reassemble our robot after every event?



To clarify, its okay for any team to bring their practice robot, so long as they write out a list of which parts they are declaring as part of their withholding allowance?

In my opinion that would be okay, provided that the team could prove that those parts weigh less than 45lbs.

The 45lbs of witholding allowance isn't allowing you to use up to 45lbs of any pre-fab stuff, it's that you can bring up to 45 of pre-fab stuff. So, conceivably, you have to plan that allowance out

Bringing a practice robot and stripping any <45lbs of stuff off it isn't the same as having to have brought <45lbs of stuff with you from the start. This is the core difference of interpretation that most people are having here. I think that FIRST intends for us to have pre-selected that 45lbs of stuff, but Q&A is the only way to clarify this. Again, everyone is under the honor system in this rule, especially teams based at (or near) event venues.

[Richard Wallace]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

What about COTS items.

It's a whole lot of work to remove all the COTS items from a practice bots for spares ahead of time.

As I read the definition of a FABRICATED ITEM in the 2014 Manual:

FABRICATED ITEM: any COMPONENT or MECHANISM that has been altered, built, cast, constructed, concocted, created, cut, heat treated, machined, manufactured, modified, painted, produced, surface coated, or conjured partially or completely into the final form in which it will be used on the ROBOT.

a MECHANISM built using a COTS item is a FABRICATED ITEM. R18 precludes access to more than 45 lb of FABRICATED ITEMS, so to be excluded from the 45 lb limit, a COTS item would need to be removed from any FABRICATED ITEM before the team has access to it during an event.

Yeah, it is a whole lot of work.

[tim-tim]

Originally Posted by Richard Wallace

As I read the definition of a FABRICATED ITEM in the 2014 Manual:a MECHANISM built using a COTS item is a FABRICATED ITEM. R18 precludes access to more than 45 lb of FABRICATED ITEMS, so to be excluded from the 45 lb limit, a COTS item would need to be removed from any FABRICATED ITEM before the team has access to it during an event.

Yeah, it is a whole lot of work.

I think Adam was asking if during an event, he could remove a COTS item (call it a CIM motor) from a practice robot and then use said CIM motor with no questions asked, penalty, etc.

Adam, feel free to correct my interpretation...

[Anupam Goli]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

So you're telling me that 125 needs to make sure we only have 45 lbs of spare parts in our lab for Northeastern because our lab is AT the venue? Yeah lemme get right on NOT doing that.

Of course, I've always felt the 45 lbs is upgrade parts. 1 to 1 replacement parts shouldn't count since they are functionally equivalent to parts you bagged. (This isn't how the rule is, it's just how I think it should be)

Our week 5 competition venue is only 2-3 miles from our workshop, so we have access to it. Does this mean we either have to A) offload every part except for the ones we withhold to a storage facility miles away, B) lock everything up and give the key to the lead inspector until the regional is over, or C) bag every part that isn't withholding and have a lockup form so we don't have access to it during competition weekend?

At what point do you say a team doesn't have potential access?

Originally Posted by JamesCH95

Yes.

Do all of your competitors have the same ability? Otherwise it gives you an exceedingly unfair advantage. This is also why the rules prohibit working on any robot parts outside of the pit area.

How is it unfair that our facility happens to be within walking/subway distance of the venue? I'm just pointing out a flaw in the wording of this rule.

[Steve W]

Originally Posted by Ian Curtis

It all just seems a little bit silly. We have a 6 week build season because FIRST "likes us", but we have to build an entire second robot to have adequate practice time, and then to actually bring spares or upgrades to an event we need to fabricate another 1/3 of our robot or disassemble and reassemble our robot after every event?



To clarify, its okay for any team to bring their practice robot, so long as they write out a list of which parts they are declaring as part of their withholding allowance?

You are allowed only 1 robot at the event, period.

[wilsonmw04]

Originally Posted by Steve W

You are allowed only 1 robot at the event, period.

Please define the "event." This is the ultimate issue. I think the arena is the event not the parking lot.

[Michael Hill]

Originally Posted by JamesCH95

That's not what I'm saying. Please don't overreact until you understand what I mean.

I'm saying that you will be under the honor system that you've pre-selected your 45lbs of withholding and won't go to your shop to take advantage of resources and spare parts that other teams don't have access to.

If you're not going to say it, then I will.

Spare parts (including fabricated identicals) STILL count against your 45 pound allowance. If you have two robot arms that are identical, one of which is on the bagged robot and another you bring in, the arm you brought in counts against your 45 pounds. If you bring in (or have access to out in your trailer) more than 45 pounds of spare parts (not including things like COTS, raw materials, etc.), you are absolutely in violation of the witholding allowance. Otherwise, there would be no reason to have the witholding allowance rule in the first place. You don't get to have a whole practice robot in your trailer to farm parts from. You have brought ~120 pounds to the event. Even if you only select 45 pounds from it. You still brought your whole practice robot to the competition. You are in violation. Pick the parts that are most likely to break and bring spares of those. Yes, I know many teams violate the rules. So stop it.

[mrnoble]

The easy answer to the problem of having a venue close to or in your fabrication shop: don't use it. Bag and tag and withholding allowance are, until it becomes necessary to have an intervention, on the honor system. Our main venue is less than 2 miles away from our school. If we forgot a tool, we will drive back and get it (and we'll do the same for other teams that don't have this advantage). There is a hardware store nearby; if we need some screws, we'll go get them. But we won't go back to the shop and pull non-COTS parts out as necessary. I recommend everyone take this approach.

"Judging" and "spirit" are loaded words on CD. Usually, when "spirit" is invoked (and when people are criticized for invoking it), we are debating things like inspiration and mentor involvement. This is categorically different: it is the implication and application of a rule that has existed in some variant for many years, and which was reiterated for this year's competition. As such, pointing out that violating a rule is not the way FRC should be played is not the same as criticizing a team for having a culture that falls within the rainbow of styles that teams have.

And in this case, "judging" is not the personal feelings of me or anyone else on CD; it is the ruling of the GDC and the actual judges who, if they knew teams were allowing themselves free access to any part they wanted, would certainly "judge".