Were to store practice bot at regional?

[JamesCH95]

Originally Posted by Anupam Goli

How is it unfair that our facility happens to be within walking/subway distance of the venue? I'm just pointing out a flaw in the wording of this rule.

I'll give you a hypothetical with some hyperbole.

Team A and Team B build the same robot. Both robots have a critical flaw in them that breaks in their first match on Friday.

Team A is from a city 500 miles away and all of their people are at the event, so they have to build a replacement in the pits with material and spare parts they brought before pits close. They miss all of their matches that day fixing their robot.

Team B's workspace is 3 miles from the venue, so they drive to their shop, revise their CAD model, press go on their cnc machine, and have a spare part in 30 minutes and are able to attend all of their matches that day.

Team B had the coincidental advantage that their build shop was right next to the venue. This is not fair to Team A.

Originally Posted by Michael Hill

If you're not going to say it, then I will.

Spare parts (including fabricated identicals) STILL count against your 45 pound allowance. If you have two robot arms that are identical, one of which is on the bagged robot and another you bring in, the arm you brought in counts against your 45 pounds. If you bring in (or have access to out in your trailer) more than 45 pounds of spare parts (not including things like COTS, raw materials, etc.), you are absolutely in violation of the witholding allowance. Otherwise, there would be no reason to have the witholding allowance rule in the first place. You don't get to have a whole practice robot in your trailer to farm parts from. You have brought ~120 pounds to the event. Even if you only select 45 pounds from it. You still brought your whole practice robot to the competition. You are in violation. Pick the parts that are most likely to break and bring spares of those. Yes, I know many teams violate the rules. So stop it.

I agree entirely.

[Anupam Goli]

Originally Posted by JamesCH95

I'll give you a hypothetical with some hyperbole.

Team A and Team B build the same robot. Both robots have a critical flaw in them that breaks in their first match on Friday.

Team A is from a city 500 miles away and all of their people are at the event, so they have to build a replacement in the pits with material and spare parts they brought before pits close. They miss all of their matches that day fixing their robot.

Team B's workspace is 3 miles from the venue, so they drive to their shop, revise their CAD model, press go on their cnc machine, and have a spare part in 30 minutes and are able to attend all of their matches that day.

Team B had the coincidental advantage that their build shop was right next to the venue. This is not fair to Team A.

That makes sense. In fact. it's in the rules that you have to do all fabrication in the pits or machine shop during competition, and I'm not debating that. Just the wording of the rule is:

At an Event, Teams may have access to a static set of FABRICATED ITEMS that shall not exceed 45 lbs.

So, being 2-3 miles from the venue means I have access to a static set of Fabricated items that exceeds probably 600lbs. Can we define "having access" to mean "in the venue and the surround parking lot"? Otherwise our team, several other teams, and all teams hosting district events are unintentionally breaking this rule.

[notmattlythgoe]

Originally Posted by Anupam Goli

That makes sense. In fact. it's in the rules that you have to do all fabrication in the pits or machine shop during competition, and I'm not debating that. Just the wording of the rule is:

At an Event, Teams may have access to a static set of FABRICATED ITEMS that shall not exceed 45 lbs.

So, being 2-3 miles from the venue means I have access to a static set of Fabricated items that exceeds probably 600lbs. Can we define "having access" to mean "in the venue and the surround parking lot"? Otherwise our team, several other teams, and all teams hosting district events are unintentionally breaking this rule.

I think a simpler change would just be that the withheld parts must be brought in with the robot barring extenuating circumstances of "Hey we forgot this part at our shop yesterday, can we bring it in with us today?" granted that part was intended to be brought with the robot initially.

[JamesCH95]

Originally Posted by Anupam Goli

That makes sense. In fact. it's in the rules that you have to do all fabrication in the pits or machine shop during competition, and I'm not debating that. Just the wording of the rule is:

At an Event, Teams may have access to a static set of FABRICATED ITEMS that shall not exceed 45 lbs.

So, being 2-3 miles from the venue means I have access to a static set of Fabricated items that exceeds probably 600lbs. Can we define "having access" to mean "in the venue and the surround parking lot"? Otherwise our team, several other teams, and all teams hosting district events are unintentionally breaking this rule.

In my opinion the spirit of the rule is to artificially limit (i.e. through the honor system) each team to 45lbs of pre-fab stuff that they have selected before they unbag their robot. I don't care if it's at the venue with you, in a trailer in the parking lot, or at your build space down the street. It must be 45lbs of stuff that was selected before you knew what actually broke on your robot.

[Rynocorn]

Originally Posted by Anupam Goli

That makes sense. In fact. it's in the rules that you have to do all fabrication in the pits or machine shop during competition, and I'm not debating that. Just the wording of the rule is:

At an Event, Teams may have access to a static set of FABRICATED ITEMS that shall not exceed 45 lbs.

So, being 2-3 miles from the venue means I have access to a static set of Fabricated items that exceeds probably 600lbs. Can we define "having access" to mean "in the venue and the surround parking lot"? Otherwise our team, several other teams, and all teams hosting district events are unintentionally breaking this rule.

In my opinion, if you do not use these parts and just bring your withholding allowance parts to the regional than you are following the rule. FIRST does not want you to pack up your lab a pnd move it away for the regional (though that's what it seems the rule entails) but as long as you make an effort to actually follow the rules, it's all good. Technically, you still have access to a large set of parts but if you do not go into your lab than it's all good. Just my opinion in what seems to be a huge discussion/debate

[JohnBoucher]

Originally Posted by Steve W

You are allowed only 1 robot at the event, period.

Where is the like button? Listen to what Steve is saying.

[Qbot2640]

Originally Posted by Anupam Goli

At an Event, Teams may have access to a static set of FABRICATED ITEMS that shall not exceed 45 lbs.

So, being 2-3 miles from the venue means I have access to a static set of Fabricated items that exceeds probably 600lbs. Can we define "having access" to mean "in the venue and the surround parking lot"? Otherwise our team, several other teams, and all teams hosting district events are unintentionally breaking this rule.

You can allow/disallow yourself access in a situation like this. We will be an hour and a half from our nearest venue, but could still travel back and forth if we allowed ourselves to do so...your shop could be in the next building - but if you honor the access pledge, you are not going to go in to grab parts.

[Monochron]

I think the intent of the rule is very clear. You have your robot, 45 pounds of pre-fabricated stuff, and then infinite raw materials. Drawing ANYTHING from a second robot is cheating.

Not to draw sweeping generalizations here, but teams who are trying to bend the rule to fit bringing extra parts outside the 45 pound limit are not upholding the spirit of FIRST. You are allowed to make a set amount of backup/alternate assemblies and that is it. You have to be intelligent with which assemblies you bring to competition. You can only do work to better your robot during pit hours and at the pits.

[Matt_Boehm_329]

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04

If we sent someone to our shop to make a part for our team or another team that is against the rules as well? The definition is vague and causes problems.

I was under the impression that fabrication must take place at the events, during event hours to maintain balance for teams that have a full shop 5 minutes from the event with those across a country

Originally Posted by Anupam Goli

That makes sense. In fact. it's in the rules that you have to do all fabrication in the pits or machine shop during competition, and I'm not debating that. Just the wording of the rule is:

Can we find a rule # for the above mentioned? And has anyone put this to Q&A yet?

Edit: In reference to the original question, i too defend the "static" side. having an unchanging set of prefab parts is very different than pulling up to 45lbs from a set of 120lbs of parts. I also agree with the previously mentioned idea that pulling a part off a practice bot for use on the competition bot outside the regional falls under fabricating/ modifying parts outside the event similar to what was posed by my first quote and is also against the rules

[Anupam Goli]

Originally Posted by Matt_Boehm_329

Can we find a rule # for the above mentioned? And has anyone put this to Q&A yet?

T11:

At events, Teams may only produce FABRICATED ITEMS in the pit areas or provided machine shops, as defined in the Administrative Manual, Section 4.8: The Pit.

[Oblarg]

Place me firmly in the group of people reading this rule as "you must select a set of pre-fabricated parts weighing at most 45lbs prior to competition, and that set cannot change while you are at competition."

If you could not, if asked, state at the beginning of the competition which parts on that practice robot are in your withholding budget and which are off-limits, and if the allowed parts don't weigh under 45 lbs, I'd say you're in violation of the rule.

[orangemoore]

Just to put this out there is to my understanding of the inclusion of the word "Static" was put in place so that teams cannot exchange parts they brought in first with other secondary parts later in the competition.

As for this entire discussion I find that there are a lot of opinions and the rule isn't very clear. If it hasn't been done already a question should to submitted to the Q & A for an official response.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by JamesCH95

That's not what I'm saying. Please don't overreact until you understand what I mean.

I'm saying that you will be under the honor system that you've pre-selected your 45lbs of withholding and won't go to your shop to take advantage of resources and spare parts that other teams don't have access to.

Except having stuff in a trailer vs in my shop vs in my pit (all of which are at the venue) is, under that interpretation, an irrelevant distinction. If I have 45 lbs of custom fabricated parts preselected does it matter if it is in a box in my trunk, on my practice bot sitting in my trailer, or in my shop on a table? I'd assert that it is a moot point in what state of assembly the parts are in.

So, as long as my parts are preselected (I provide a list and proof that the parts are under 45 lbs) I should be set?



Furthermore, what defines a robot? I can bring in a spare sidecar, PD board, CRIO, and radio and that's not a robot... If they happen to all be zip tied to a piece of lexan for easy carrying? Is that now a robot?

I admit, I'm just being difficult. I have every intention of following the spirit of the rule (don't bring in more than 45 lbs of custom made upgrade parts per event) but I don't see myself locking up parts in my shop to comply with the letter of the rule.

[Matt_Boehm_329]

Originally Posted by Anupam Goli

T11:

Ahh that's what I was looking at too. Thanks.

[FrankJ]

Another way to think of this. The 2 day regional teams have access periods for their robot. They are also limited to the same static 45 lb fabricated parts limit even if they are accessing there robot in their build site that has their practice bots along with comp bots from the last ten games. Before they access their robot, they need to define the static 45 lb. No inspector is going to do that for them or check that they have done so.