Were to store practice bot at regional?

[martin417]

Originally Posted by Steve W

You are allowed only 1 robot at the event, period.

In the past, we have brought lots of "stuff" and kept it in the trailer. Some of that stuff might have been past year's bots, this year's practice bot or parts of bots. There was no intention to use any of the fabricated items, but to have raw material and attached COTS items available, not just for our team, but for teams that came up and asked "have you guys got any (fill in the blank)". An old bot has motors, gearboxes, channel, angle, screws, nuts, etc. that could be useful to our team or any other team that needs parts or raw material.

If I take a piece of an arm off of last year's (or this year's) bot, cut it to length or dill a hole in it to make it a brace for the competition bot, I simply used some of the unlimited amount of raw materials I am allowed to bring.

You guys need to loosen up.

[Matt_Boehm_329]

The manual defines Robot in its glossary as:

ROBOT: an electromechanical assembly built by an FRC Team to perform specific tasks when competing in AERIAL ASSIST. It includes all of the basic systems required to be an active participant in the game: power, communications, control, mobility, and actuation. The implementation must obviously follow a design approach intended to play AERIAL ASSIST (e.g. a box of unassembled parts placed on the FIELD or a ROBOT designed to play a different game would not satisfy this definition).

[rlowe61]

Originally Posted by Anupam Goli

T11:

I would suggest reading the reference 4.8 of the Admin Manual, as it is quite extensive on what all is covered.

Also read the following from the game manual.
4.4.3 R15

Many teams have local events, it's in the spirit of FIRST to be "Hands Off" during competitions' down periods (after pits close)
If you're trying to find a loop-hole, it's probably not in the spirit.

Many teams build practice bots, many teams build replacement pieces (part of their 45 pounds) that is all within the rules. Best to leave the practice bot at home and don't take the chance of violating a rule.

Good Luck to everyone this week and in following weeks.

[notmattlythgoe]

Originally Posted by martin417

In the past, we have brought lots of "stuff" and kept it in the trailer. Some of that stuff might have been past year's bots, this year's practice bot or parts of bots. There was no intention to use any of the fabricated items, but to have raw material and attached COTS items available, not just for our team, but for teams that came up and asked "have you guys got any (fill in the blank)". An old bot has motors, gearboxes, channel, angle, screws, nuts, etc. that could be useful to our team or any other team that needs parts or raw material.

If I take a piece of an arm off of last year's (or this year's) bot, cut it to length or dill a hole in it to make it a brace for the competition bot, I simply used some of the unlimited amount of raw materials I am allowed to bring.

You guys need to loosen up.

That wouldn't be an issue to me. I'd see that as falling in the unlimited raw materials category.

[Tristan Lall]

Originally Posted by Oblarg

Place me firmly in the group of people reading this rule as "you must select a set of pre-fabricated parts weighing at most 45lbs prior to competition, and that set cannot change while you are at competition."

If you could not, if asked, state at the beginning of the competition which parts on that practice robot are in your withholding budget and which are off-limits, and if the allowed parts don't weigh under 45 lbs, I'd say you're in violation of the rule.

That's exactly how I see it. Also, it's very nice that FIRST has finally updated this rule. For years, it was questionably enforceable due to ambiguity. While not ironclad, the word "static" goes a long way. However, this does imply that a lot of past practice is illegal, which may not go over well with the teams.


There is no standard process for providing documentation of that set of parts, and teams typically won't be asked about it—but if you are asked by an official, you will need to be able to put a list together and justify it. This isn't supposed to be like collapsing the waveform, where the state is only determined when the information is collected—to comply with the requirement that it be static, that set has to be predetermined, even if it isn't documented.

If in the position to enforce the rule, I would interpret it leniently and say that the set can change between competitions. (The rule refers to "an" event, not to all events, so that interpretation is plausible, and certainly practical.)


As for the teams who could be in a position to access their shop (or other resource where more than 45 lb of fabricated parts exist) during a regional event, they need to be able to justify how some of those parts are in fact inaccessible. There's no required procedure, but whatever you come up with needs to effectively limit access. Again, you aren't typically asked, but if you are asked, your answer should have been predetermined.

[Nick.kremer]

What this really comes down to is what FIRST means by "static set".

Could a team hypothetically build 3 mechanism (mec1, mec2, mec3) all weighing 20lbs and keep them off-sight. And after playing a few matches choose that mec1 and mec3 are most appropriate to add to their robot?

I don't think so, this to me doesn't qualify as a static set, as it clearly changes based on need, which doesn't fit the definition of static.

my $0.02

[Jared Russell]

The rules as written are relatively unambiguous (other than perhaps the precise meaning of the word "static").

But I am not sure why functionally identical fabricated replacement parts are no longer allowed in unlimited quantities. Isn't letting each team field a fully functional robot for the entire event more inspirational and important than any of the possible reasons why this rule exists?

Space at the venue? Teams are allowed unlimited raw materials, so this cannot be the reason.

Difficulty of enforcing the "functionally identical" part? There is so much else in FIRST that is already based on the honor system...

Fairness? I argue that a weight limit for spare parts is more unfair. Many teams lack the ability to fabricate a mechanism that is both highly functional and lightweight, limiting their ability to fit spares within the weight limit.

Considering that this is both the most violent game of the bumper era, and extending outside the frame perimeter is essentially necessary to complete many basic game tasks, I hope that FIRST reconsiders this policy.

[JamesCH95]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

Except having stuff in a trailer vs in my shop vs in my pit (all of which are at the venue) is, under that interpretation, an irrelevant distinction. If I have 45 lbs of custom fabricated parts preselected does it matter if it is in a box in my trunk, on my practice bot sitting in my trailer, or in my shop on a table? I'd assert that it is a moot point in what state of assembly the parts are in.

So, as long as my parts are preselected (I provide a list and proof that the parts are under 45 lbs) I should be set?



Furthermore, what defines a robot? I can bring in a spare sidecar, PD board, CRIO, and radio and that's not a robot... If they happen to all be zip tied to a piece of lexan for easy carrying? Is that now a robot?

I admit, I'm just being difficult. I have every intention of following the spirit of the rule (don't bring in more than 45 lbs of custom made upgrade parts per event) but I don't see myself locking up parts in my shop to comply with the letter of the rule.

I'd think so.

I know you are, but someone has to be the devil's advocate (just not the devil's lawyer).

I wouldn't lock up parts in the shop, or lock up the shop. I think it should be an artificial constraint enforced by the honor code, anything more just gets out of hand really quickly.

[Jaxom]

Originally Posted by martin417

There was no intention to use any of the fabricated items, but to have raw material and attached COTS items available...

If I take a piece of an arm off of last year's (or this year's) bot, cut it to length or dill a hole in it to make it a brace for the competition bot, I simply used some of the unlimited amount of raw materials I am allowed to bring.

From the glossary:

FABRICATED ITEM: any COMPONENT or MECHANISM that has been altered, built, cast, constructed, concocted, created, cut, heat treated, machined, manufactured, modified, painted, produced, surface coated, or conjured partially or completely into the final form in which it will be used on the ROBOT.

I submit that when you have "attached COTS items" or you take a piece off an older robot you don't have raw materials. Even if your arm is nothing but a straight piece of 80/20 you probably cut it from a longer piece of stock, and the word "cut" is in the definition.

To me, the only nebulous part of this is T11's use of the word "produce". I think it's obvious that you're not allowed to have a drill press in your hotel room to make parts at night. What's not obvious to me is whether or not "removal from an existing <something>" is the same as "produce".

This definitely needs to be asked in the Q&A. I'm pretty sure I know what the answer will be -- "removal" = "produce", and therefore having a practice robot in the parking lot or hotel isn't a "static" set of fabricated items -- but it's worth asking.

[IronicDeadBird]

Two things cause I gotta run.

1. I feel like the limited amount of spare parts is something that actually forces more thought into designing a robot. When you design a robot all around performing well and you have done your job and you can win at any event if you sail smoothly. Yet taking the time to design something that can handle a few bumps in the road is a beneficial experience for students. Its a humbling experience to learn the hard way even when everything is done right, something can still go wrong.
2. It would be interesting to allow teams to bring as much as they wanted IF they donated anything that was "extra" was given to First to be available to all teams during a competition. This year I see a lot of similar robot designs and I imagine a fair number of fabricated parts could be tossed between teams and used.
Looking back though this idea can be exploited in so many ways.

Last little bit...
I genuinely feel sorry for a team who has to repair more then 45 pounds of damage to a robot. That is a lot of stress put onto students in a very short amount of time.

[Ian Curtis]

Since it looks like I was interpreting this rule differently than others, can someone explain to me what this means for District teams and the robot access period? Is not kosher to take assemblies off of a practice robot and put them on the competition robot? If we have a list of this part and this part and this part, does that make it okay?

We a team broke their robot practicing during an access period, are they not allowed to take a 15 pound component from their practice robot and replace it?

[Joseph1825]

Originally Posted by Ian Curtis

Since it looks like I was interpreting this rule differently than others, can someone explain to me what this means for District teams and the robot access period? Is not kosher to take assemblies off of a practice robot and put them on the competition robot? If we have a list of this part and this part and this part, does that make it okay?

We a team broke their robot practicing during an access period, are they not allowed to take a 15 pound component from their practice robot and replace it?

How I would interpret this rule is before a competion (and by extension, before your robot access period). you must define (read, "choose") up to 45 pounds of spare items. Even if you never write the list down and show it to anyone, the important thing is that you have to choose what is going to be in your 45 pounds before the start of the competition (or access period).
By my interpretation it doesn't matter where the parts are located but they must be chosen before the event. (ie. "My spare parts for this event are a 30 pound device we brought with us and a 15 pound device that is sitting in my hotel room that I will get if I need to.)

[neshera]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

So you're telling me that 125 needs to make sure we only have 45 lbs of spare parts in our lab for Northeastern because our lab is AT the venue? Yeah lemme get right on NOT doing that.

Of course, I've always felt the 45 lbs is upgrade parts. 1 to 1 replacement parts shouldn't count since they are functionally equivalent to parts you bagged. (This isn't how the rule is, it's just how I think it should be)

1) Seriously? You don't see having that immediate access to all/any of your team's spare parts, COTS or fabricated, constitutes an unfair advantage? What do you think a team competing against you from, say, Mexico would make of this? What about a team that can't afford a big trailer to park in the parking lot? This is EXACTLY why the "45 pound rule" exists. Even in years where lots of robot parts break. Especially in years where lots of robot parts break.

2) 1 to 1 replacement issue: I understand from your post you recognize this is just what you would like, not what the rules currently state. I trust you and your team are professional enough to abide by the rules as they are, not as you think they should be.
But let me tell you why I think the rule should stand: teams with less resources to stockpile spare parts, teams that can't afford to build a second/practice robot, teams that have to travel and ship their parts from great distances - these teams want to compete with you based on your smarts and ingenuity, not on how much money you have or how close you happen to be to a regional venue.

When you explain FRC to someone new, and explain that everyone in the world finds out the game at the exact same time, and has the exact same six weeks to build their robot, and has to stay in the same budget for the robot, and has to repair their robots with what they have on hand at the venue - they get it. They get why FIRST if fair. And they are impressed that we do all of that on an honor system. It's one of the biggest concepts we impress on rookie students and parents. It's part of our culture - our team's culture, and our FIRST culture.

[neshera]

Originally Posted by martin417

In the past, we have brought lots of "stuff" and kept it in the trailer. Some of that stuff might have been past year's bots, this year's practice bot or parts of bots. There was no intention to use any of the fabricated items, but to have raw material and attached COTS items available, not just for our team, but for teams that came up and asked "have you guys got any (fill in the blank)". An old bot has motors, gearboxes, channel, angle, screws, nuts, etc. that could be useful to our team or any other team that needs parts or raw material.

If I take a piece of an arm off of last year's (or this year's) bot, cut it to length or dill a hole in it to make it a brace for the competition bot, I simply used some of the unlimited amount of raw materials I am allowed to bring.

Emphasis mine.
Some hypothetical problems I could foresee:
- Do you publicize this in any way? If not, then only teams that happen to stumble upon your stash benefit.
- If you have better, more expensive materials on your last year's robot than I have on my current robots, can I simply replace it? Can I take off my cardboard and use your Lexan? Your gearbox that is better than mine?
- Can I replace burnt out motors/C-Rios etc. with your stuff? Can I just put burnt out motors on my robot before I even bag it, and then take all your spares?
- Do you access your trailer before/after the pits are open to grab stuff to work on in the pits during pit hours? If so, can you open up your trailer for me at 10pm on Thursday night for me to do a little browsing? How about at 2am? and can you bring some coffee?

I know I'm getting a bit ridiculous here, but you can see where things could go. Now if you don't mind, I'm going to do a little loosening up - it just looks like I'm taking a nap.

[neshera]

Originally Posted by Anupam Goli

This brings up an interesting question:

Our 2nd event is 2-3 miles away from our working facility. Does that mean every single part in our facility counts to the 45 lb limit, since we have access to it during the competition?

Only if you allow yourselves to access them.
A rule of thumb here might be:
Behave as if you had traveled to the Regional from a thousand miles away.
This is where gracious professionalism comes in to play.