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  #106   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-03-2014, 19:08
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Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?

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Originally Posted by bduddy View Post
Also note that if you plan to repeatedly switch gearboxes, the inspectors may consider them "interchangeable parts" and add all of them to your robot's weight.
That's what I was driving at but that's a conversation for a different thread. This one is intense enough.
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Unread 06-03-2014, 19:29
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Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?

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Originally Posted by kevin.li.rit View Post
None. The unclear part is part of the hypothetical of bringing 30 COTS gearboxes of different ratios to provide different speeds to intake rollers.
It was a scenario prior to inspection to go to the practice field and see what ratio worked best. It's contrived but well within the rules.
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Unread 06-03-2014, 20:03
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Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?

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Originally Posted by martin417 View Post
I think you are reading way too much into this. If I bought a 20' piece of 1" angle last year, and cut 1 foot of off of it to make a robot part, then by your definition, the other 19' would be off limits for this year.
I never said that; I was talking about the parts taken off of a robot. There's nothing wrong with using left-overs from whatever raw materials you had from wherever or whenever. Those aren't fabricated items, but the part you cut off to use on a robot is. I'm pretty sure I remember a Q&A or rule somewhere that says it's OK to cut raw materials in order to be able to transport them, but that may have been some previous year. I sure hope that still applies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by martin417 View Post
Also by your definition, if I had a piece of 8020 that was 24" long on my last years robot, that I then disassembled and put in the parts bin, I couldn't cut a 9" piece off of it and use it this years bot.
That's an interesting one. By definition, your 24" piece from last year is a fabricated part. Cutting 9" off of it doesn't seem to be an issue (you're using the old stock as a raw material that happens to be 24" long, I think), if that 9" is unmodified (although I could be wrong). But if, for example, it has mounting holes drilled in the 9" section, then it is a fabricated part (by definition) and isn't allowed on this year's robot. The first sentence in the blue box under R13:
Quote:
Please note that this means that FABRICATED ITEMS from ROBOTS entered in previous FIRST competitions may not be used on ROBOTS in the 2014 FRC.
Also see the Q&A; Q102.

Quote:
Originally Posted by martin417 View Post
Pardon my bluntness, but that is the most ridiculous interpretation of the rules I have yet seen.
OK. You're entitled to your opinion, of course; obviously I disagree. Show me the rule that says I'm wrong. And I'm sure if you think a bit you can find that you've seen more ridiculous things in FRC; I know I have.

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Originally Posted by martin417 View Post
Many of the components of every robot I have been associated with were made from scrap parts and pieces of material from the company where I work. They had been previously cut, drilled or otherwise modified to be a part of something else. After the team further cut, shaped and modified them, they became robot parts. In the following years, as long as the part is modified from its condition as used in the previous robot, it is legal for this years robot.
I would hope that scrap pieces from somewhere besides a robot could be treated as raw materials, as long as the "scrap" isn't some kind of assembly used as a unit that isn't available as a COTS part for everyone else. Remember, I was specifically talking about parts taken off previous years' robots. I'm not sure that further modification from a fabrication makes something legal or not; sounds like a good Q&A. I think re-using mounting holes drilled last year might make it illegal. Likewise a shape (say you drilled new mounting holes in a cam you made last year) that was created in a previous year may not be legal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by martin417 View Post
There is no rule that describes "raw material" as brand new, never cut or modified material. If I use a piece of 1" angle, and apply manufacturing processes to it to make it a part of my robot, its history has no bearing on its legality as a robot part. There is no magic that is imbued into the metal when it is made into a robot part. I get no advantage from using that part unless I use it in the same exact configuration as it was used in a previous robot.
The history of a part *can* have bearing on its legality as a robot part; see my citations above. And yes you do get an advantage. You don't have to spend the time to fabricate the part, and because you built it in a previous year you violate the build season schedule.
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Unread 06-03-2014, 21:51
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Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?

The whole problem here is the idea of a duplicate robot for the purposes of spare parts. Having one on site means that you have access to potentially 120 lbs of spare parts. Even if you only bring in one piece from the "backup bot", you have access to any part of that robot. Just because it is in your trailer, truck, shop or whatever instead of inside the venue, you still have access to 120 lbs of fabricated items.

I don't think anyone is contesting stockpiles of COTS or items that can be re-purposed as "raw stock" (reuse is better than recycling!). Bring all of that stuff you want - as COTS or raw stock. I find no issue with hacking off some material from a robot carcass for use as long as what was used was in the form of raw material when you began working on it in the pit.

The issue is that by having a "backup bot", you have brought and have access to more than the withholding allowance of 45 lbs of FABRICATED parts - even if it isn't inside the venue.

If the withholding allowance is only specific to what is in the actual building, it is essentially meaningless. Build any amount of replacement/upgrade parts and then select which ones you need based on how the event plays out... That's not what I think is the intent of the allowance in the first place.

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Unread 06-03-2014, 21:58
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Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?

Mr. Schreiber:

1: "The only solution I could see to this issue (because under that reading of the rules it is an issue and I would, of course, need to rectify it) would be to remove all of the offending parts from my lab."

How about closing the door(s) to your lab and not accessing the fabricated parts in there during the competition? You could just bring 45 pounds into your pit area on Thursday.

2: "This isn't even approaching the issue that our entire machine shop is available to us at the venue which I assume would also fall under your statement of unfair. "

Only if you use it. Again, put yourself in the shoes of any other team at the Northeastern Regional. More importantly, however -
T11
At events, Teams may only produce FABRICATED ITEMS in the pit areas or provided machine shops, as defined in the Administrative Manual, Section 4.8: The Pit.
It's not a problem to have your shop/lab/parts at the same institution as the competition. The distance from the field to your CNC machine is not the issue.

3: "FIRST isn't fair and neither is life."

Both true statements. But recognize that part of the attraction of sports in general is that there are rules to try to "level the playing field." If the goal of FIRST is to change a culture, and to make it a mass movement, it is in all of our interest to try to make the competitions as fair as we can, and to attract as many students as we can.

4: "I'm going to ignore the thinly veiled assertion that I am planning on breaking rules."
That's what the emoticon was for! No assertion made.
Good luck at your competitions!
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Unread 06-03-2014, 22:03
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Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?

I'm surprised this thread blew up so much. 2/2 for Bit Buckets controversy threads.

I find it interesting that the term "intent of the rule" is used so frequently in this thread. As none of us are on the GDC, I doubt any of us have a thorough understanding of what the "intent of the rule" is. My take on the rules is that we have a limited weight worth of withholding parts so that a team cannot show up to a competition with a completely brand new robot to replace the bagged one. I do not think the intent of the rule is to limit how many spare duplicate parts can be brought to an event, although the 2014 wording acts as a limiter on this. Again, not on the GDC, so I am simply posting an opinion.

Also, I'm still waiting for a team to build three robots, bag two, and develop the third as a practice robot at home. That should lead to some fun discussion!

Last edited by s_forbes : 06-03-2014 at 22:15. Reason: words
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Unread 06-03-2014, 22:11
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Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?

There have been other threads on this topic. I like this one in particular.
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Unread 06-03-2014, 22:39
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Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?

Quote:
R18
At an Event, Teams may have access to a static set of FABRICATED ITEMS that shall not exceed 45 lbs. Items made at an Event do not count towards this weight limit.
The only unclear thing I see in this is the word 'static'. It could mean
A. You can't exchange parts throughout the event
B. You must decide what you will bring before you start the event

If the intention is A, then a practice robot in the parking lot is fine, and you can replace stuff as it breaks, as long as you don't rip more than 45 lbs of manufactured parts off it. As far as I'm concerned, if its COTS, then you can take whatever you like.

If the intention is B, a practice robot in the parking lot that you take stuff off as it breaks would be illegal unless perhaps you kept a list of what you could take off your practice robot,. Again, COTS doesn't count and you can go to your practice bot(or anywhere, for that matter) and rip as much COTS off as you like.

For the shop being in the venue or 5000 miles away, this seems entirely irrelevant. You can use a static(defined either in A or B) 45lb set of fabricated materials. I think its entirely fine even to go into your shop. Your chairman's presenters can practice, or you can work on or view CAD, or you can even fabricate stuff to bring in as witholding to your next event. In addition, you can grab as much COTS stuff as you like. You CANNOT manufacture items that you put on the competition robot at the competition its currently at.

As for the giving manufactured parts to other teams thing. We'll use the example of blockers, if the blocker were created at the event or bagged with a robot, you can do anything you want with it, (providing it passes inspection, modular parts, etc). If the blocker was brought in with witholding, I see it okay if the team that brought the blocker gives it to someone on their alliance, and then the team gives it back to the team who built it after their match. The team who built it can then redistribute it to someone on their alliance in a new match. I see this as okay as the team that gains the most from it is the team that used it as part of their witholding.

*I'm not trying to find manual passages that back me up, I'm just trying to look at the spirit of the rule

** Can someone do a QA for
"If I bring a practice robot to an event and leave it in a trailer, removing parts from it as they break on my competition robot, but I never remove more than 45lbs, would I be violating 'static' in R18?"

Last edited by tStano : 06-03-2014 at 22:43. Reason: grammar
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Unread 07-03-2014, 00:25
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Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?

Sorry, but my team can only afford so many Talons, and half of them are on our practice bot. Practice bot comes with, us, but it also doesn't actually have anything other than COTS parts for us to harvest this year.

You're free to your opinion and I'm free to mine, and until I hear from a definitive (and authoritative) source, such as Q&A, I'll play by our interpretation of the intent of the rules.
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Unread 07-03-2014, 00:54
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Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tStano View Post

** Can someone do a QA for
"If I bring a practice robot to an event and leave it in a trailer, removing parts from it as they break on my competition robot, but I never remove more than 45lbs, would I be violating 'static' in R18?"
I'll do it. Forgive me, but I haven't ever posted a Q. I'm registered. How do I do it?
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Unread 07-03-2014, 01:01
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Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?

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Originally Posted by mrnoble View Post
I'll do it. Forgive me, but I haven't ever posted a Q. I'm registered. How do I do it?
You have to be logged in using your team's account. (See TIMS for that.)

Then you have to search for a similar question.

Then you get the "submit a question" button. Click, and you get 300 characters, or something like that. I suggest doing a followup question off of Q416, asking if using an old or practice robot that weighed more than 45 lbs and was kept outside the arena as a parts supply would be legal, provided that less than 45 lbs were brought in total. It's a similar situation.
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Unread 07-03-2014, 01:09
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Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?

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Originally Posted by cadandcookies View Post
Sorry, but my team can only afford so many Talons, and half of them are on our practice bot. Practice bot comes with, us, but it also doesn't actually have anything other than COTS parts for us to harvest this year.
I don't get it. Are your Talons fabricated parts? Do you have more than 45 lb of them? (So many, indeed.)

Why would that justify bringing your whole practice bot, rather than just 45 lb of fabricated parts? (Or does your practice bot weigh less than 45 lb?)
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Unread 07-03-2014, 02:16
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Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?

Keep in mind that an outsider to FIRST just reading the manual would almost certainly consider using the 45lb withholding allowance to overhaul the robot on Thursday as against the "spirit" of the stop build rules. You're supposed to build a robot in 6 weeks, why should you be able to keep working on a large part of your robot far past ship date?

If you look at the rule in question, it appears like you're allowed to bring 45lbs of fabricated parts in to the event, and can't change what counts as that 45lbs as the event goes on. Does it really matter where those parts came from?
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Unread 07-03-2014, 02:33
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Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevin.li.rit View Post
Wouldn't the 30 spare gearboxes all count your total robot weight if you intended to use them in different configurations?
Quote:
Originally Posted by martin417 View Post
No, they are COTS items.
If they are versa planetaries for example they are only COTS items if they aren't assembled. If they had previously been assembled you can return them to being COTS parts by disassembling them to the state they are in when purchased. This applies to all items that are purchased un-assembled which applies to many transmissions.
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Unread 07-03-2014, 04:32
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Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?

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Originally Posted by martin417 View Post
No, they are COTS items.
That has nothing to do with them counting towards the weight of your robot. If they are intended as interchangeable parts (a concept which is not fully defined in the rules), they all count.
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