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Unread 07-03-2014, 06:34
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Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?

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Originally Posted by bduddy View Post
That has nothing to do with them counting towards the weight of your robot. If they are intended as interchangeable parts (a concept which is not fully defined in the rules), they all count.
So when you read the rule, what you see is "unlimited COTS items and raw material, unless you plan to use those items on your robot."?
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Unread 07-03-2014, 07:10
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Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?

My understanding of the hypothetical versaplanetary problem is as follows.

1) Are the gearboxes pre-assembled? If yes, they are modified, in a way that is intended to be for the robot in question, and should count towards the 45 pounds. If not, or if they are disassembled back to original condition, they are COTS. Even so, "modifying" a gearbox by putting it together isn't something I as your competitor would grouse about, unless...

2) they are intended to be swapped out interchangeably to modify the performance of the robot, especially from round to round, based on the desired function per each round's competitive requirements. If so, you are treating them the same way other teams might treat interchangeable appendages. In this case, they should all definitely count towards your 45, and I WOULD grouse about it.
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Unread 07-03-2014, 07:44
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Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?

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Originally Posted by mrnoble View Post
1) ...
2) ...
1) I think you're pretty safe in your understanding, since this very example is used in the manual when discussing fabricated parts and COTS items.
2) And if this is the case, ALL of the interchangeable gearboxes need to be weighed with your robot and total 120 lbs or less. In which case you don't need to be re-inspected when you change them from round to round. This having nothing to do with them being COTS or not, of course.
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Unread 07-03-2014, 09:11
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Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?

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Originally Posted by mrnoble View Post
My understanding of the hypothetical versaplanetary problem is as follows.

1) Are the gearboxes pre-assembled? If yes, they are modified, in a way that is intended to be for the robot in question, and should count towards the 45 pounds. If not, or if they are disassembled back to original condition, they are COTS. Even so, "modifying" a gearbox by putting it together isn't something I as your competitor would grouse about, unless...

2) they are intended to be swapped out interchangeably to modify the performance of the robot, especially from round to round, based on the desired function per each round's competitive requirements. If so, you are treating them the same way other teams might treat interchangeable appendages. In this case, they should all definitely count towards your 45, and I WOULD grouse about it.
Unless the gearboxes come from VexPro unassembled, and you assemble them, they should not count towards the 45 since they're COTS. If some or all of them are used interchangeably on your robot, then every gearbox that is used counts toward the 120 lb robot weight.
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Unread 07-03-2014, 09:17
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Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?

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Originally Posted by neshera View Post
Mr. Schreiber:

1: "The only solution I could see to this issue (because under that reading of the rules it is an issue and I would, of course, need to rectify it) would be to remove all of the offending parts from my lab."

How about closing the door(s) to your lab and not accessing the fabricated parts in there during the competition? You could just bring 45 pounds into your pit area on Thursday.

2: "This isn't even approaching the issue that our entire machine shop is available to us at the venue which I assume would also fall under your statement of unfair. "

Only if you use it. Again, put yourself in the shoes of any other team at the Northeastern Regional. More importantly, however -
T11
At events, Teams may only produce FABRICATED ITEMS in the pit areas or provided machine shops, as defined in the Administrative Manual, Section 4.8: The Pit.
It's not a problem to have your shop/lab/parts at the same institution as the competition. The distance from the field to your CNC machine is not the issue.

3: "FIRST isn't fair and neither is life."

Both true statements. But recognize that part of the attraction of sports in general is that there are rules to try to "level the playing field." If the goal of FIRST is to change a culture, and to make it a mass movement, it is in all of our interest to try to make the competitions as fair as we can, and to attract as many students as we can.

4: "I'm going to ignore the thinly veiled assertion that I am planning on breaking rules."
That's what the emoticon was for! No assertion made.
Good luck at your competitions!


Wait, you mean like I could do if I merely had a list of parts off my practice bot that was sitting in the trailer?

Hmm...
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Unread 07-03-2014, 09:40
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Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?

FRC Q&A 396:

https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/...-long-as-we-do

Quote:
Q. Some clarification is needed about rules R15 & R18. Between Feb 19 and our first competition, can we continue to build/develop using our 45 pounds of "static set of FABRICATED ITEMS" as long as we don't interface with our bagged robot? Additionally, what does the word "static" mean in this case?
2014-02-19 by FRC4951
A. 1) Yes. 2) In the context of R18, "static" means "fixed" such that the set of parts withheld per R18 doesn't change between now and the end of the first Event (i.e. you can't withhold an arm assembly now and then swap it out for an intake assembly during a Robot Access Period). The set may be different for each Event (at the end of your first Event you could withhold the intake assembly and bag the arm assembly), including any associated Robot Access Periods.
Some food for thought. I think I'm even more confused by their definition of static in this case.
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Unread 07-03-2014, 09:45
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Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anupam Goli View Post
FRC Q&A 396:

https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/...-long-as-we-do



Some food for thought. I think I'm even more confused by their definition of static in this case.
Me too >.<
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Unread 07-03-2014, 09:47
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Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?

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Originally Posted by Anupam Goli View Post
Some food for thought. I think I'm even more confused by their definition of static in this case.
All that they're saying is that the Robot Access Period is considered part of your event; since the period is intended to replace the first day of competition at 2-day events. Once you decide what your withholding allowance is for the event during the Robot Access period, you can't change it.

This is to keep teams with 2-day events from having an advantage by being able to add 45 lbs to the bag during their access period and bringing another 45 lbs to competition, giving them an effective 90 lbs of withholding.
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Unread 07-03-2014, 09:56
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Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?

So from what I'm gathering, according to the definition of "static", it's okay to have in mind what you need to pull from your practice bot by the event, but you can't decide to pull your arm beforehand, but then pull your intake during the middle of competition? Or is it just saying that the Robot Access period is a disjointed part of the event, and for teams going to a district competition, the withheld set of items can't change between the access period and the friday of competition?
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Unread 07-03-2014, 09:57
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Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?

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Originally Posted by Anupam Goli View Post
So from what I'm gathering, according to the definition of "static", it's okay to have in mind what you need to pull from your practice bot by the event, but you can't decide to pull your arm beforehand, but then pull your intake during the middle of competition? Or is it just saying that the Robot Access period is a disjointed part of the event, and for teams going to a district competition, the withheld set of items can't change between the access period and the friday of competition?
The latter.
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Unread 07-03-2014, 10:08
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Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?

Again, the fact that they're mentioning "a set of withheld parts that cannot change during a competition" seems to clearly imply that you must know before the competition which parts are in that set. If you bring a whole practice bot, and only happen to take off 45lbs of parts but could not have, if asked, said what those parts would be at the outset, then you clearly weren't working with a "set of withheld parts" that weighed under 45lbs at the outset.
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Unread 07-03-2014, 10:09
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Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?

Q. Can we bring an old robot to the competition for the purposes of using it to supplement our Chairman's Award presentation and not have the weight count against our team's 45 lb withholding allowance?
Follow FRC0340 on 2014-02-25 | 1 Followers
A. These items would count towards the 45 lb limit in R18.
I think this pretty much solves the problem.
If the GDC counts a old robot against the 45 pound with holding, they would consider a new robot the same way.
So now lets stop and go play Aerial Assist
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Unread 07-03-2014, 10:13
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Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?

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Originally Posted by Wayne Doenges View Post
Q. Can we bring an old robot to the competition for the purposes of using it to supplement our Chairman's Award presentation and not have the weight count against our team's 45 lb withholding allowance?
Follow FRC0340 on 2014-02-25 | 1 Followers
A. These items would count towards the 45 lb limit in R18.
I think this pretty much solves the problem.
If the GDC counts a old robot against the 45 pound with holding, they would consider a new robot the same way.
So now lets stop and go play Aerial Assist
Sure, can I just say that the GDC needs to pull it's collective head out of a certain part of their anatomy? That's possibly the second stupidest ruling I've seen recently from them (the dumbest being batteries counting against withholding which they did resolve).

By this logic any robot built for demo purposes that a host team may want to have outside to interact with students would count against their weight. What if for part of my RCA I want to bring my FTC team's robot for display in my pit?
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Unread 07-03-2014, 10:21
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Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?

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Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber View Post
Sure, can I just say that the GDC needs to pull it's collective head out of a certain part of their anatomy? That's possibly the second stupidest ruling I've seen recently from them (the dumbest being batteries counting against withholding which they did resolve).

By this logic any robot built for demo purposes that a host team may want to have outside to interact with students would count against their weight. What if for part of my RCA I want to bring my FTC team's robot for display in my pit?
I guess no t-shirt cannon robots allowed at competition anymore...
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Unread 07-03-2014, 10:22
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Re: Were to store practice bot at regional?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber View Post
Sure, can I just say that the GDC needs to pull it's collective head out of a certain part of their anatomy? That's possibly the second stupidest ruling I've seen recently from them (the dumbest being batteries counting against withholding which they did resolve).

By this logic any robot built for demo purposes that a host team may want to have outside to interact with students would count against their weight. What if for part of my RCA I want to bring my FTC team's robot for display in my pit?
Not to mention, this ruling makes it illegal for any team to bring a t-shirt cannon or demo bot to parade during the break time before elims or awards.
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