Recharging Robot Pneumatics with Air Tool compressor

[astro70]

Has anyone used a compressor like those used with air tools to recharge robots in the pit? It could be connected with a quick release fitting to the pressure vent of the robot.

[jmartin]

Pretty sure this is not legal, see rule R79 and R80:

R79
Compressed air on the ROBOT must be provided by one and only one compressor. Compressor specifications may not exceed nominal 12VDC, 1.05 cfm flow rate.

R80
Off-board compressors are permitted, however the compressor must be controlled and powered by the ROBOT.

[cgmv123]

Not legal on the competition field. If you're practicing/testing, it's kind of a gray area, but I'd still avoid it.

[Steve W]

Not legal at the competition on practice field, pits or competition playing field. You will be asked to remove from the pit area.

[DonRotolo]

Agreed. Completely not legal at any competition. Leave it home.

[Bochek]

Originally Posted by Steve W

Not legal at the competition on practice field, pits or competition playing field. You will be asked to remove from the pit area.

Agreed. Completely not legal at any competition. Leave it home.

While I acknowledge that it is illegal to use a shop compressor to fill the pneumatics tanks for a competition match, I fail to find anywhere in the manual that states you can not bring a compressor, and use it in the pits or to fill your robots tanks for use on the practice field.

Please correct me quoting a rule from the manual if I am incorrect.

[orangemoore]

Originally Posted by Bochek

While I acknowledge that it is illegal to use a shop compressor to fill the pneumatics tanks for a competition match, I fail to find anywhere in the manual that states you can not bring a compressor, and use it in the pits or to fill your robots tanks for use on the practice field.

Please correct me quoting a rule from the manual if I am incorrect.

Here is the full rule which I believe answers your question.

R80
Off-board compressors are permitted, however the compressor must be controlled and powered by the ROBOT.

(Blue Box)
The compressor may be mounted on the ROBOT, or it may be left off the ROBOT and used to pre-charge compressed air in storage tanks on the ROBOT

The intent of this rule is to permit teams to take advantage of the weight savings associated with keeping the compressor off-board. However, using the compressor off-board of the ROBOT does NOT permit non-compliance with any other applicable rules.

[Bochek]

Originally Posted by orangemoore

Here is the full rule which I believe answers your question.

The rule doesn't state that "shop compressors" are not allowed in the pits. Also filling your robots air tanks from a shop compressor for some time on the practice field would not fall under "non-compliance with any other applicable rules" from what I understand.

[orangemoore]

Originally Posted by Bochek

The rule doesn't state that "shop compressors" are not allowed in the pits. Also filling your robots air tanks from a shop compressor for some time on the practice field would not fall under "non-compliance with any other applicable rules" from what I understand.

This would be an applicable rule

R79
Compressed air on the ROBOT must be provided by one and only one compressor. Compressor specifications may not exceed nominal 12VDC, 1.05 cfm flow rate.

If you were to use a shop compressor, you would 1) be using an illegal compressor, or 2) you would be using more than one compressor which is also illegal.

[Jaxom]

Originally Posted by Bochek

The rule doesn't state that "shop compressors" are not allowed in the pits. Also filling your robots air tanks from a shop compressor for some time on the practice field would not fall under "non-compliance with any other applicable rules" from what I understand.

I agree -- I don't know of a rule that prohibits shop compressors in the pits. However, using one to fill your ROBOT's tanks, for any reason, would violate a number of rules -- airflow, one and only one compressor, and control of the compressor by the CRIO. I don't understand why anyone would think that a robot isn't a ROBOT just because it's not on the competition field.

As for the "I don't see any rule that says you can't" justification -- I don't see anything that says I can't use depleted uranium for ballast on my robot.

[Jon Stratis]

There are multiple issues with having shop compressors in the pits.

First, as inspectors we don't know what you're using it for. You could use it to charge your robot at any point - while this is clearly not legal for competition use, doing so for use on the practice field and in the pits also bypasses half the safety mechanisms on the robot - stored air is not under the control of the robot, it doesn't turn off when the robot is disabled or e-stopped, and it doesn't automatically stop at 120 PSI (many shop compressors can be adjusted to charge to greater than 120 PSI). So using it to charge the robot for non-competition uses at a match violates R8 by creating a potentially unsafe condition in the pits or practice field.

Second, many of the venues we run our competitions have limited available power. Shop compressors require significant startup current and could easily blow a breaker, cutting power to your pit and your neighbors.

Third, as already pointed out, shop compressors can very easily be used to create a dangerous situation by blowing metal chips around - those can easily find their way around safety glasses and into team's electronics.

Please, do us all a favor and leave the shop compressors in the shop. We don't want to see them at competition.

[Seth Mallory]

The way some shop air compressors are made they have a pressure wave that is higher then their rating. Where I works we have over 100 compressors in coach's. They have 2 or 3 safety valves depending on the brand of coach. The safety valve by the tanks is set at 150 psi and by the compressor is set at 200 psi. By the time the pressurized air has traveled the 20 plus feet between the high and low safety valves the wave has smoothed out. The air coming out of the cylinder of an compressor is higher then the rating of most compressors. Please just use what FRC wants you to use.

[martin417]

Originally Posted by Bochek

While I acknowledge that it is illegal to use a shop compressor to fill the pneumatics tanks for a competition match, I fail to find anywhere in the manual that states you can not bring a compressor, and use it in the pits or to fill your robots tanks for use on the practice field.

Please correct me quoting a rule from the manual if I am incorrect.

Or more importantly, to blow off the robot before powering it up because your team, or the team in the next pt was cutting, grinding, filing, chopping, de-burring, trimming, stripping, or otherwise performing an activity likely to cause metal bits and pieces to be in the air and possibly land in or on your sensitive electronics.

They don't make you wear safety glasses for nothing.

[EricH]

If a team brings a shop compressor, and is using it for tools and the like, and doing that in a safe manner, I have no issue with that.

Once you start using it to charge your robot's tanks, that's where the inspectors run into problems.

[Richard Wallace]

Originally Posted by martin417

Or more importantly, to blow off the robot before powering it up because your team, or the team in the next pt was cutting, grinding, filing, chopping, de-burring, trimming, stripping, or otherwise performing an activity likely to cause metal bits and pieces to be in the air and possibly land in or on your sensitive electronics.

Please don't use compressed air to to blow off your robot in an FRC pit. As you said yourself, it can send small metal bits into the air. After which they will land in places you cannot control. Maybe in your robot's electrical system, maybe in another team's. You should be using a vacuum, not a blower, to remove small debris from your robot.

See also this post by Dave Lavery several years ago.