San Diego: Tech Foul in Finals

[BrendanB]

Originally Posted by twetherbee

Here is the video I recorded of that match. Tech foul in discussion occurs at about 2:30.

http://youtu.be/vp_kB8LRUg0

Congrats to 1266, 330, 4583, and 4486. 330's driving in the semi-finals and finals is among the best I have ever seen in first.

Honestly that is an extremely tough call I feel bad for the ref crew who had to deliberate over that one.

There is just so much about that play where you can call it both ways.

[David8696]

I also want to note that I am absolutely not trying to take anything away from our opponents. They played two unbelievable games, and as has been mentioned previously, the drive team of 330 should serve as an example for all aspiring FRC drivers. I just feel that the regional should not have been decided based on a single arguable call.

[twetherbee]

Originally Posted by aditya29

I'd love to see 330's driving in the semifinals again. They really put on a clinic of how to get around defensive bots - hopefully that last semis match was recorded.

1538 recorded every match with the "Clint Bolinger" setup (aka full field view via GoPro), except the finals matches. They were planning to post them to youtube this coming week. SF2-3 is one they have recorded.

[Racer26]

Tough call. Looks to me like HP wasn't aiming for 330 (and the Blue BALL within), but rather trying to get the Red BALL down field in a hurry and 330 happened to move into the path, but without being that HP, it would be tough to say what his intent was.

The fact that it was unsuccessful in causing 330 any trouble (the Blue BALL didn't even flinch in 330s grasp, and they were able to get a [failed] shot off before the end of the match) ought to be a part of the decision to call the foul.

Certainly strategies (even failed ones) of what is being alleged here ought to be punished with a Tech foul, but I have an awfully hard time seeing this as being an intentional strategy, at least when I'm only seeing this one video, which changes angle at an inopportune time for optimal viewing, and never really gets a good angle on the HP in question; perhaps the refs could see something that this video didn't capture.

[brandon.cottrell]

On behalf of 1266, the alliance captain of the winning alliance, I'd like to apologize for the technical foul call. While we do accept it as a victory because it was still a very close game, we are a little offput because it sort of seems like we didn't really "win" it. I would have liked to see a 3rd match played, with a matchup like that you guys really deserved it.

I guess we will just have to hope that technical foul calls will be more refined by Las Vegas, and that we're more aware of what exactly was the foul and sooner. Let's keep in mind though that the refs are doing their best, and that we're fortunate to have dedicated people like that in FIRST.

[David8696]

Originally Posted by Brandon1266

On behalf of 1266, the alliance captain of the winning alliance, I'd like to apologize for the technical foul call. While we do accept it as a victory because it was still a very close game, we are a little offput because it sort of seems like we didn't really "win" it. I would have liked to see a 3rd match played, with a matchup like that you guys really deserved it.

I guess we will just have to hope that technical foul calls will be more refined by Las Vegas, and that we're more aware of what exactly was the foul and sooner. Let's keep in mind though that the refs are doing their best, and that we're fortunate to have dedicated people like that in FIRST.

This is one of the most Gracious Professional posts I've seen in my time in FIRST. On behalf of the W.A.R. Lords and the FIRST community, I'd like to thank you for exhibiting exactly the values FIRST most tries to promote. And I completely agree with you about the refs; I just think it's too bad when the outcome of a match and even a regional is placed on their shoulders like this.

Originally Posted by Racer26

...at least when I'm only seeing this one video, which changes angle at an inopportune time for optimal viewing, and never really gets a good angle on the HP in question; perhaps the refs could see something that this video didn't capture.

One of the team parents actually got a video from directly behind the ref; it's uploading to youtube right now, and I'll post it as soon as it finishes. It's always good in these situations to consider how it could be seen from as many angles as possible. However, I will say that in my personal (and admittedly biased) opinion, this does nothing to support the idea that it should have been called a foul.

[David8696]

This should be live in about 7 minutes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSRw5Ck5oJ0

Edit: Video is now live.

Edit 2: The incident in question takes place at around 2:05 (I recommend watching a few seconds before the pass itself, as it seems to become apparent that 2485 was trying to move into position to take a human player pass).

[sircedric4]

A very similar thing happened at the Arkansas regional finals. Technical fouls called and deliberated on after the game was over and not in real time were levied on the blue alliance for both the last games. These technical fouls changed the results of the game.

This particular game puts too much control in the referee's hands with the size and human judgement aspect of the penalties. An honest mistake on the referee's part can literally cost an alliance an entire regional championship. This is not an isolated San Diego regional problem, it is systematic and showing up at other venues.

[pigpenguin]

Originally Posted by DampRobot

Almost no teams can make up a 50 point deficit, especially against a good alliance. If a ref makes a mistake or what some would consider a bad call, it's essentially game over for any alliance which wasn't going to blow out the other alliance anyway.

Fouls exist to get people to play the game fairly. The current fouls seem to punish teams for stuff which may or may not be within their control. Imagine if tech fouls were 500 points. People wouldn't be any less likely to commit them. There's just no good reason for the fouls, especially tech fouls, to be this high.

I think this is the problem at the moment. The technical fouls are punishing teams way too much especially for what are, in most cases, accidents. However on the flip side if they are too small teams won't try to avoid them as much and possibly (although I know of no such teams) abuse these fouls... At the end of the day it sucks that this happens but game design is tricky and stuff happens. Although I would have loved to see one more round those final matches were intense.

[DanielleSisk]

Here is the logic I can see behind the foul being called:

It looks as though the human player is attempting to throw the ball to 2485 when it hits 330. BUT then 2485 never goes to retrieve the ball, they appear to play defense against 330 (as per the second video). 3250 actually ends picking up the ball in the last few seconds (as shown in the first video). This could lead the ref to believe that the ball was intentionally thrown at 330s robot and not intended for the following 2485 to inbound.

[mathking]

I watched both posted videos a bunch of times and it seems clear that the human player is trying to get his alliance the ball and should not have been a foul. But I will be honest when I watched the first posted one the first time (and mind you I could not see the human player) it looked like the ball was thrown at 330. So I understand how a referee could make the call. And not reverse it because they can't look at video. As quite a few posters have said, the high point value for inadvertent fouls is a problem. I think smaller point values would make for a better game. If you are really concerned with keeping play clean perhaps the point values ratchet up for multiple instances of the same infraction in the same match. One thing I think that would dramatically improve the game would be to have six scorekeepers, whose only job is to watch one team for possessions and scores. Then the referees could look just for fouls and not have a divided responsibility.

[Karthik]

Let me preface this by saying what an incredibly difficult job the referees have this season. They have too much to watch, and are working with sub-optimal input system. It would be difficult to find fault with any referee call this season, just because of the terrible position they've been put in by the written rules and Q&A.

Even if this was an intentional move, the fact that something so inconsequential was worth 50 points is mind boggling to me. From my vantage point, this seems completely accidental, and definitely not warranting a foul. I feel bad for both alliances here, the red alliance for having to lose due to a ridiculous penalty value, and the blue alliance for having their well earned victory being drawn into question. I also feel for the referees, who are in for a long season of being the focal point of match results. These overwhelming penalties for inconsequential actions are definitely marring Aerial Assist.

[wlaroche]

Originally Posted by Karthik

Let me preface this by saying what an incredibly difficult job the referees have this season. They have too much to watch, and are working with sub-optimal input system. It would be difficult to find fault with any referee call this season, just because of the terrible position they've been put in by the written rules and Q&A.

Even if this was an intentional move, the fact that something so inconsequential was worth 50 points is mind boggling to me. From my vantage point, this seems completely accidental, and definitely not warranting a foul. I feel bad for both alliances here, the red alliance for having to lose due to a ridiculous penalty value, and the blue alliance for having their well earned victory being drawn into question. I also feel for the referees, who are in for a long season of being the focal point of match results. These overwhelming penalties for inconsequential actions are definitely marring Aerial Assist.

Glad to hear that others see what kind of job the referees have this year. It takes all of Thursday just to learn the tablets while having to learn how the game is going to be played. There are two different screens that can take a couple of seconds to navigate between just to enter fouls, then a couple of seconds to navigate back so the can enter the points accumulated. While navigating the screens your eyes are off the field and things happen. When we look up situations can look like penalties and they get called. But we all would do our best to help each other out to make sure the points were added though, the radios are well used during the match for this and for penalties.

This is the first time in my history with first that game was designed to be this rough. When standing 4 feet from a demo derby of robots beating each other up situations can look like a foul. Please be kind to your referees all the crashing and hard hitting can make intent and who initiates the contact really hard to figure out.

Not knowing how your regional was played by the human players, it looked like the ball was thrown with some force wether to their alliance robot or at the blue ball. In our regional the balls were barely making it on the field because they were thrown in so passively all weekend (they did not want the technical for passing the plane). So looking at how the ball was thrown and the the fact that the red robot playing strong defense for so long before the ball was thrown, and little to no actions to go and pick the ball up after the blue ball was thrown towards the goal, I could see why the referees said the red robot was not playing the ball thus throwing the ball at the blue robot. It looks like the red robot was coming in to intercept the blue robot and pin them against the wall to stop there movement while the ball was thrown in the direction of the the scuffle, I say this from a referees perspective who was standing 4 feet from a demo derby all weekend.

[Johnny]

Originally Posted by Brandon1266

On behalf of 1266, the alliance captain of the winning alliance, I'd like to apologize for the technical foul call. While we do accept it as a victory because it was still a very close game, we are a little offput because it sort of seems like we didn't really "win" it. I would have liked to see a 3rd match played, with a matchup like that you guys really deserved it.

I guess we will just have to hope that technical foul calls will be more refined by Las Vegas, and that we're more aware of what exactly was the foul and sooner. Let's keep in mind though that the refs are doing their best, and that we're fortunate to have dedicated people like that in FIRST.

Brandon spoke for our team. Our team doesn't like the idea of our win being questioned because it was a hard fought victory. Having to win a match "on account of a penalty" is never optimal, but it's just part of the game.

I've been involved in FRC for 10 years and have seen ref calls decide matches and lots questionable calls. I've watched the replay and was on the field when the call happened and I honestly can see why the ref could have made that call.

Picture the scenario; the game was close and the beach bots scoring that last ball could have put the blue alliance ahead, but as the beach bots are going to score the ref sees a red ball move across the field with some force hitting the beach bot robot and no attempt by the red team to grab the ball. Seconds later 330 shoots and misses.

This is probably what the referee saw. Intentional or not, we need to understand that this is a difficult call but it's understandable why it was made. 987 and 2485 were fierce competitors and I have great respect for both teams. 987 has been one of my favorite teams since I started frc and I have looked up to their organization ever since. 2485 has a special place for me because I remember when our original mentor and myself as a student helped your team get started in frc and vex. You guys have turned into such an amazing team! Team 1266 apologizes tremendously for having to win under these conditions. Having been around so long though, I accept that penalties are part of the game and I instruct all my students to be very careful with everything they do during a match, especially during elimination because the threat of game deciding penalty are always present.

We will be seeing 987 and 2485 again at the Vegas regional and our team is looking forward to it! Once again I'm sorry for our team having to win by technical foul, but props to our alliance partner team 330( my favorite team besides my own). Their driver was amazing and saved us quite a few times with his ability to weave through defenses and score in the high goal!

[inquiryteacher]

After seeing the match in question..... I have to say it was another great example of fouls ruining game play. An alliance bot was clearly in position to accept the pass. This is one of the subjective fouls which can be called as the ref sees it. IF he thinks it would likely a defensive strategy to win the game, it is likely he will call it. Regardless of contradictory supporting evidence.