Go to Post I love FIRST... - jess523s [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > Competition > Rules/Strategy
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Closed Thread
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #31   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-03-2014, 14:13
Anupam Goli's Avatar
Anupam Goli Anupam Goli is offline
PCH Q&A co-founder
AKA: noops
FRC #1648 (G3 Robotics)
Team Role: Team Spirit / Cheering
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: Rochester, New York
Posts: 1,242
Anupam Goli has a reputation beyond reputeAnupam Goli has a reputation beyond reputeAnupam Goli has a reputation beyond reputeAnupam Goli has a reputation beyond reputeAnupam Goli has a reputation beyond reputeAnupam Goli has a reputation beyond reputeAnupam Goli has a reputation beyond reputeAnupam Goli has a reputation beyond reputeAnupam Goli has a reputation beyond reputeAnupam Goli has a reputation beyond reputeAnupam Goli has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Petition: Lower technical foul values to make this game better

There are actions that deserve a tech foul at a full 50 points, like intentionally tipping a team. There are actions that only deserve a 20 pt. foul. Then there are things that could incidentally happen that are getting tech fouls, like accidentally having an opponent ball in your possession, having a finger outside the yellow line, and damaging contact initiated by the team playing defense. Perhaps we should look into adding a third type of foul. The tech foul can be lowered to 30 pts in value, and we can have a "flagrant foul" be worth the full 50 pts.
__________________
Team 1002: 2008-2012
Team 1648: 2012-2016
Georgia Tech Class of 2016
RIT Graduate Student, CompE
  #32   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-03-2014, 14:14
mwtidd's Avatar
mwtidd mwtidd is offline
Registered User
AKA: mike
FRC #0319 (Big Bad Bob)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 714
mwtidd has a reputation beyond reputemwtidd has a reputation beyond reputemwtidd has a reputation beyond reputemwtidd has a reputation beyond reputemwtidd has a reputation beyond reputemwtidd has a reputation beyond reputemwtidd has a reputation beyond reputemwtidd has a reputation beyond reputemwtidd has a reputation beyond reputemwtidd has a reputation beyond reputemwtidd has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Petition: Lower technical foul values to make this game better

Quote:
Originally Posted by sircedric4 View Post
And based on what I was seeing at the Arkansas was exactly opposite. This is a personal amecdote just like your anecdote. The problem is that there is too much for the refs to do in order to have a consistent experience across all the venues. The fouls are too subjective and too penalizing. My experience with Aerial Assist, this is not a game of highest scoring alliance winning but who the referees allow to win.

I am happy you had good refs, I was not happy with ours. A change in the game rules is necessary to eliminate as much of the human subjectivity as possible. First should strive for consistent game experiences and that requires doing something with referee calls swinging games.
I'm curious, how may refs did you have at your event? We had 6 + 1 head ref.
__________________
"Never let your schooling interfere with your education" -Mark Twain
  #33   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-03-2014, 14:18
wlaroche wlaroche is offline
Registered User
FRC #2177 (Robbettes)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: Mendota Heights
Posts: 20
wlaroche is on a distinguished road
Re: Petition: Lower technical foul values to make this game better

They increased the referees to 5 on the field and one to rotate in and out. It helped quite a bit. This does not count the head ref, they would be the sixth set of eyes.
  #34   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-03-2014, 15:08
joelg236 joelg236 is offline
4334 Retired Mentor & Alumni
AKA: Joel Gallant
no team
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Rookie Year: 2012
Location: Calgary
Posts: 733
joelg236 has a reputation beyond reputejoelg236 has a reputation beyond reputejoelg236 has a reputation beyond reputejoelg236 has a reputation beyond reputejoelg236 has a reputation beyond reputejoelg236 has a reputation beyond reputejoelg236 has a reputation beyond reputejoelg236 has a reputation beyond reputejoelg236 has a reputation beyond reputejoelg236 has a reputation beyond reputejoelg236 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Petition: Lower technical foul values to make this game better

Yes. As a human player, I'm much more worried about foul points than I am enjoying the match, making smart decisions or having fun.

Tech fouls are almost equivalent to a DQ for the match (for most teams that aren't powerhouses).
__________________
All opinions are my own.
  #35   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-03-2014, 15:16
orangemoore orangemoore is offline
Registered User
AKA: Roger Moore
FRC #3135 (Robotic Colonels)
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Rookie Year: 2013
Location: Chicago
Posts: 2,307
orangemoore has a reputation beyond reputeorangemoore has a reputation beyond reputeorangemoore has a reputation beyond reputeorangemoore has a reputation beyond reputeorangemoore has a reputation beyond reputeorangemoore has a reputation beyond reputeorangemoore has a reputation beyond reputeorangemoore has a reputation beyond reputeorangemoore has a reputation beyond reputeorangemoore has a reputation beyond reputeorangemoore has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Petition: Lower technical foul values to make this game better

Quote:
Originally Posted by joelg236 View Post
Yes. As a human player, I'm much more worried about foul points than I am enjoying the match, making smart decisions or having fun.

Tech fouls are almost equivalent to a DQ for the match (for most teams that aren't powerhouses).
Isn't that the point? Making sure you are paying attention to what you are doing?
It may be excessive, but what you are saying to me is what the fouls are for. If you were not paying attention you could possibly get hurt.
__________________
Stronghold


Student 2013-2016
3135 -- Robotic Colonels
3507 -- Robotheosis (FTC)
  #36   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-03-2014, 15:21
joelg236 joelg236 is offline
4334 Retired Mentor & Alumni
AKA: Joel Gallant
no team
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Rookie Year: 2012
Location: Calgary
Posts: 733
joelg236 has a reputation beyond reputejoelg236 has a reputation beyond reputejoelg236 has a reputation beyond reputejoelg236 has a reputation beyond reputejoelg236 has a reputation beyond reputejoelg236 has a reputation beyond reputejoelg236 has a reputation beyond reputejoelg236 has a reputation beyond reputejoelg236 has a reputation beyond reputejoelg236 has a reputation beyond reputejoelg236 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Petition: Lower technical foul values to make this game better

Quote:
Originally Posted by orangemoore View Post
Isn't that the point? Making sure you are paying attention to what you are doing?
It may be excessive, but what you are saying to me is what the fouls are for. If you were not paying attention you could possibly get hurt.
I feel like not having the safety zone (what was originally intended) is sufficient, and has absolutely no effect on safety. There's no way anyone would get hurt if there was a clear line neither human nor robot could cross. And even if they could, the buffer zone could just be right at the field barrier.
__________________
All opinions are my own.
  #37   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-03-2014, 15:23
Unsung FIRST Hero
Karthik Karthik is offline
VEX Robotics GDC Chairman
no team
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Rookie Year: 1998
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,342
Karthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Petition: Lower technical foul values to make this game better

Quote:
Originally Posted by orangemoore View Post
Isn't that the point? Making sure you are paying attention to what you are doing?
It may be excessive, but what you are saying to me is what the fouls are for. If you were not paying attention you could possibly get hurt.
I understand your point, but I feel like if FIRST was fully concerned about safety, they wouldn't have allowed teams to intentionally rifle balls out of the field of play to their Human Players as part of normal game strategy. I'm surprised we haven't seen anyone field side get hurt from one of these shots.
__________________
:: Karthik Kanagasabapathy ::
"Enthusiasm is one of the most powerful engines of success. When you do a thing, do it with all your might. Put your whole soul into it. Stamp it with your own personality. Be active, be energetic, be enthusiastic and faithful and you will accomplish your object. Nothing great was ever achieved without enthusiasm" -- R.W. Emerson
My TEDx Talk - The Subtle Secrets of Success
Full disclosure: I work for IFI and VEX Robotics, and am the Chairman of the VEX Robotics and VEX IQ Game Design Committees
.
  #38   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-03-2014, 15:24
Lil' Lavery Lil' Lavery is offline
TSIMFD
AKA: Sean Lavery
FRC #1712 (DAWGMA)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 6,588
Lil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Lil' Lavery
Re: Petition: Lower technical foul values to make this game better

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karthik View Post
Does an offsides increase the risk of concussions?
  #39   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-03-2014, 15:27
cgmv123's Avatar
cgmv123 cgmv123 is offline
FRC RI/FLL Field Manager
AKA: Max Vrany
FRC #1306 (BadgerBOTS)
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Rookie Year: 2011
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 2,072
cgmv123 has a reputation beyond reputecgmv123 has a reputation beyond reputecgmv123 has a reputation beyond reputecgmv123 has a reputation beyond reputecgmv123 has a reputation beyond reputecgmv123 has a reputation beyond reputecgmv123 has a reputation beyond reputecgmv123 has a reputation beyond reputecgmv123 has a reputation beyond reputecgmv123 has a reputation beyond reputecgmv123 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Petition: Lower technical foul values to make this game better

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery View Post
Does an offsides increase the risk of concussions?
Yes, since the down is replayed (unless the offense declines, which isn't an option in FIRST), an offisides creates an extra play, which is an additional potential for concussion.
__________________
BadgerBOTS Robotics|@team1306|Facebook: BadgerBOTS
2016 FIRST Championship Tesla Division | 2016 Wisconsin Regional Engineering Inspiration Award

2015 FIRST Championship Carson Division | 2015 Wisconsin Regional Chairman's Award

2013 FIRST Championship Curie Division | 2013 Wisconsin Regional Chairman's Award

2012 FIRST Championship Archimedes Division | 2012 Wisconsin Regional Engineering Inspiration Award, Woodie Flowers Finalist Award (Lead Mentor Ben Senson)

  #40   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-03-2014, 15:36
Bob Steele's Avatar
Bob Steele Bob Steele is offline
Professional Steamacrit Hunter
AKA: Bob Steele
FRC #1983 (Skunk Works Robotics)
Team Role: Coach
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Seattle, Washington
Posts: 1,511
Bob Steele has a reputation beyond reputeBob Steele has a reputation beyond reputeBob Steele has a reputation beyond reputeBob Steele has a reputation beyond reputeBob Steele has a reputation beyond reputeBob Steele has a reputation beyond reputeBob Steele has a reputation beyond reputeBob Steele has a reputation beyond reputeBob Steele has a reputation beyond reputeBob Steele has a reputation beyond reputeBob Steele has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Petition: Lower technical foul values to make this game better

You guys are confusing offsides with false start...
false start stops the play...so no EXTRA PLAY
offsides the play continues so yes you have an EXTRA PLAY

But in the end the foul does not add time to the game so the amount of time played is the same therefore the game does not have more time for possibly life-changing injuries and concussions and such ...

sorry ...
__________________
Raisbeck Aviation High School TEAM 1983 - Seattle, Washington
Las Vegas 07 WINNER w/ 1425/254...Seattle 08 WINNER w/ 2046/949.. Oregon 09 WINNER w/1318/2635..SEA 10 RCA ..Spokane 12 WINNER w/2122/4082 and RCA...Central Wa 13 WINNER w/1425/753..Seattle 13 WINNER w/948/492 & RCA ..Spokane 13 WINNER w/2471/4125.. Spokane 14 - DCA --Auburn 14 - WINNER w/1318/4960..District CMP 14 WINNER w/1318/2907, District CMA.. CMP 14 Newton Finalist w 971/341/3147 ... Auburn Mountainview 15 WINNER w/1318/3049 - Mt Vernon 15 WINNER w/1318/4654 - Philomath 15 WINNER w/955/847 -District CMP 15 WINNER w/955/2930 & District CMA -CMP Newton -Industrial Design Award

  #41   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-03-2014, 15:39
Daniel_LaFleur's Avatar
Daniel_LaFleur Daniel_LaFleur is offline
Mad Scientist
AKA: Me
FRC #2040 (DERT)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Peoria, IL
Posts: 1,955
Daniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via MSN to Daniel_LaFleur
Re: Petition: Lower technical foul values to make this game better

Quote:
Originally Posted by cgmv123 View Post
Yes, since the down is replayed (unless the offense declines, which isn't an option in FIRST), an offisides creates an extra play, which is an additional potential for concussion.
Ummm ... no it does not.

The clock still ran and time was taken off. The only time it adds a play is at the end of a half or end of the game if it was the defense causing a penalty.
__________________
___________________
"We are not now that strength which in old days moved earth and heaven; that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts, Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. "
- Tennyson, Ulysses
  #42   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-03-2014, 15:44
Unsung FIRST Hero
Karthik Karthik is offline
VEX Robotics GDC Chairman
no team
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Rookie Year: 1998
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,342
Karthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Petition: Lower technical foul values to make this game better

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery View Post
Does an offsides increase the risk of concussions?
Yes, absolutely. An offside is the result of a player getting a head start on the play, lowering the ability to react of the opposing team. This is precisely why the play is blown dead in cases where the defender is "unabated to the quarterback."
__________________
:: Karthik Kanagasabapathy ::
"Enthusiasm is one of the most powerful engines of success. When you do a thing, do it with all your might. Put your whole soul into it. Stamp it with your own personality. Be active, be energetic, be enthusiastic and faithful and you will accomplish your object. Nothing great was ever achieved without enthusiasm" -- R.W. Emerson
My TEDx Talk - The Subtle Secrets of Success
Full disclosure: I work for IFI and VEX Robotics, and am the Chairman of the VEX Robotics and VEX IQ Game Design Committees
.
  #43   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-03-2014, 15:54
Daniel_LaFleur's Avatar
Daniel_LaFleur Daniel_LaFleur is offline
Mad Scientist
AKA: Me
FRC #2040 (DERT)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Peoria, IL
Posts: 1,955
Daniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via MSN to Daniel_LaFleur
Re: Petition: Lower technical foul values to make this game better

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karthik View Post
Yes, absolutely. An offside is the result of a player getting a head start on the play, lowering the ability to react of the opposing team. This is precisely why the play is blown dead in cases where the defender is "unabated to the quarterback."
Offsides does not cause the concussion ... thus it is a minor penalty -- 5 yards.

A blow to the head is a personal foul because of that exact safety issue ... thus a major penalty --- 15 yards.


This is exactly what FIRST is trying to do with its penalty system.


and while I agree that 50 points is a "match killer", it basically is FIRST saying "don't do this".

JM(NS)HO
__________________
___________________
"We are not now that strength which in old days moved earth and heaven; that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts, Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. "
- Tennyson, Ulysses
  #44   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-03-2014, 15:59
Unsung FIRST Hero
Karthik Karthik is offline
VEX Robotics GDC Chairman
no team
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Rookie Year: 1998
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,342
Karthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Petition: Lower technical foul values to make this game better

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur View Post
Offsides does not cause the concussion ... thus it is a minor penalty -- 5 yards.

A blow to the head is a personal foul because of that exact safety issue ... thus a major penalty --- 15 yards.


This is exactly what FIRST is trying to do with its penalty system.


and while I agree that 50 points is a "match killer", it basically is FIRST saying "don't do this".

JM(NS)HO
Agreed, however a 15 yard penalty in football is mere pittance compared to the "match killer" 50 point penalty in Aerial Assist.
__________________
:: Karthik Kanagasabapathy ::
"Enthusiasm is one of the most powerful engines of success. When you do a thing, do it with all your might. Put your whole soul into it. Stamp it with your own personality. Be active, be energetic, be enthusiastic and faithful and you will accomplish your object. Nothing great was ever achieved without enthusiasm" -- R.W. Emerson
My TEDx Talk - The Subtle Secrets of Success
Full disclosure: I work for IFI and VEX Robotics, and am the Chairman of the VEX Robotics and VEX IQ Game Design Committees
.
  #45   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-03-2014, 16:22
inquiryteacher inquiryteacher is offline
Registered User
FRC #3173
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Rochester NY
Posts: 8
inquiryteacher has much to be proud ofinquiryteacher has much to be proud ofinquiryteacher has much to be proud ofinquiryteacher has much to be proud ofinquiryteacher has much to be proud ofinquiryteacher has much to be proud ofinquiryteacher has much to be proud ofinquiryteacher has much to be proud of
Re: Petition: Lower technical foul values to make this game better

Definitely Yes.

In the regional we just competed in the number of fouls was ridiculous and decided the outcome of many of the matches. Students from many teams where disgusted, disheartened, and discouraged. They were not really judged for their design or performance excellence, but more often for incidental or inconsequential fouls.

This year was a cleverly designed contest as it allowed for the inclusion of even the most inexperienced teams in game play. Teams without the skills or resources to build complicated apparatus are able to compete and even complete important scores to quickly complete cycles. But the amount and severity of the fouls is significantly disproportionate. Some of the fouls are very difficult to call an some are quite subjective. Adult delays after scoring (relighting the pedestal) caused more the one speedy youngster and alliance team to suffer. Incidentally, the students got to enjoy double jeopardy (two fouls - one offense) as the balls were almost immediately back in play giving them little time to realize their mistake and sealing the fate of the match.

The same teams who were cleverly included this year are also the most at risk. The simple apparatus necessary to compete often lack the sophistication to quickly be moved out of harms way. Asking for students to design a bot with allowances for a 20 inch overhang, and then repeatedly dinging them for contact within the perimeter of another bot is a design flaw in the contest. This type of contact should have been expected without the addition of any safe zones and bots should be designed sturdily, to withstand the rigors of the contest.

While there naturally should be some sort of penalty associated, We will likely see teams exploiting this flaw to gain foul points as the weeks go by, as I believe I have already witnessed a few times. It will decide contests and it is simply to easy for them not to.

This contest design flaw will likely influence design and creativity next year, as students will be asked to design around not fouling, instead of letting their more ingenious designs come to light. Interestingly enough, our team was chosen as an alliance partner in the finals, not due to our stellar performance in the regional, but simply because with a few modifications, it made it almost impossible to foul.
Closed Thread


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 15:29.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi