Game Manual - Team Update - 2014-03-11

[PayneTrain]

I do like the idea of to make something officially COTS a scenario like this would occur:

Robot comes back to the pits. Someone didn't grease it, and now the gears look more like discs. Guess we need to replace that transmission! Thankfully we have a spare, identical transmission that is identical to the ones we bought from our friends at ACME Robotics. BUT WAIT! The team already brought in a spare intake and catapult and with the added transmission, would go over the 45 pound barrier. This means you have to take it apart, then put it back together, before you can compete with a functioning robot again. This situation would probably inspire me to beat my head against a wall in frustration and help me recognize how silly this rule is in 2014.

We want people to exercise Gracious Professionalism® and play at their best, but also not really because we find this archaic rule to satisfy something related to inspiring students to pursue careers in science and technology.™

[Kevin Sheridan]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

Is it really that big of a deal to prepare for competition? If you want something available, do what you need to do to bring it into the venue with you at load in. It's that simple. Thousands of teams do it, why should some teams have the privilege of a trailer full of stuff outside that they can pick and choose from during an event?

I would certainly argue that it's not "forcing teams to spend money/time for no net gain" - It's forcing teams to plan ahead, organize, and prepare. If you're presenting some new wonder-gadget for your company, odds are you bring spares with you to the venue. Odds are you have supplies to fix anything conceivable that could go wrong. Odds are you have a plan for the entire event, with sufficient redundancies that the product launch doesn't become a flop. It's the same thing here.

Thousands of teams do not adequately prepare for events. How many teams are bringing in full backups of cRIOs, PDbB, speed controllers, motors, radios, sensors and other COTS items? I would wager that not many teams at qualifying events have backups of absolutely everything that needs to go on the robot (for COTS items). Teams that are bringing extra parts benefit everyone since these teams can lend these items out to teams who need them.

[mrnoble]

Ok, so we're now standing on opposite sides of a gulf; some folks think this ruling just serves to clarify a rule that already existed and is generally fair, others are expressing their displeasure. The real question now is: do you intend to follow it?

[Nick.kremer]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

We want people to exercise Gracious Professionalism® and play at their best, but also not really because we find this archaic rule to satisfy something related to inspiring students to pursue careers in science and technology.™

^ The trademark at the end killed me, but this is very true.

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

This sounds like the setup to a bad FIRST joke.

a Thursday?

[Hallry]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sheridan

Thousands of teams do not adequately prepare for events.

Just want to point out that there are under 2,850 teams that compete at events.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by mrnoble

Ok, so we're now standing on opposite sides of a gulf; some folks think this ruling just serves to clarify a rule that already existed and is generally fair, others are expressing their displeasure. The real question now is: do you intend to follow it?

I think I already adequately described a scenario in which you follow the rule and can have a practice robot on event premises.

The rule purely addresses whether or not you have to bring in all 45 pounds of fabricated parts as soon as the pits open, or whether you can bring in 15 lbs when the pits open and another 15 (out of some total poundage greater than 45) at the end of practice day when you figure out what upgrade parts you want to run, or something like that. It does nothing to address practice robots.

[BrendanB]

Originally Posted by mrnoble

Ok, so we're now standing on opposite sides of a gulf; some folks think this ruling just serves to clarify a rule that already existed and is generally fair, others are expressing their displeasure. The real question now is: do you intend to follow it?

Yes. No one in this thread is arguing to violate this rule. The discussion is how FIRST keeps implementing these rules that have the unintended consequence of hurting other teams like how 1323 uses their resources to help anyone who needs it. Same goes for our team.

If a team comes up to me saying they are in need of part we have on our practice robot and no one has it inside the event they are out of luck because it is no longer load in day.

[Tom Bottiglieri]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

If you're presenting some new wonder-gadget for your company, odds are you bring spares with you to the venue. Odds are you have supplies to fix anything conceivable that could go wrong. Odds are you have a plan for the entire event, with sufficient redundancies that the product launch doesn't become a flop. It's the same thing here.

I don't think this is a good parallel. There is no real world application I can see that restricts the use of warm spares. I certainly don't think Apple has engineers waiting on the side of the stage waiting to solder on new CPUs if their iPhones break during a product unveil.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by mrnoble

Ok, so we're now standing on opposite sides of a gulf; some folks think this ruling just serves to clarify a rule that already existed and is generally fair, others are expressing their displeasure. The real question now is: do you intend to follow it?

I think a lot of people who dislike bag and tag that come from teams honored with being inducted into the FIRST Hall of Fame will
a) definitely follow the rule,
b) probably have combined more on-team experience than the people who decided this rule and probably have a leg to stand on when they criticize it
c) probably also be ignored just like they have been in the past and will be in the future.

EDIT: Full disclosure-422 is by no means a hall of fame team, but as a team who used to bring in "jump-start" kits to the Virginia Regional to help teams reach a minimum competitive concept (minibot/deployment, bridge tipper, 10-pt hanger, and now guided ramps) we will very likely be unable to serve our FIRST community in this capacity with the new ruling, and I think that is something that should be noted.

[nixiebunny]

I don't really care about whether or not the rule has a parallel in the real world. It's the rule; we'll follow it and all the other rules.

That's what it comes down to. Arguing about whether rules make sense is fruitless. They are the rules.

[AdamHeard]

This reminds me of something I used to argue.

There should be a "reuse allowance" of some weight (10-45 lbs?) from any previous year.

It's another rule that makes bad teams better, but doesn't appreciably help good teams aside from maybe saving a few bucks.

It also helps cover the area of the withholding allowance rule people are complaining about.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by nixiebunny

That's what it comes down to. Arguing about whether rules make sense is fruitless. They are the rules.

The rules change year to year in response from constructive criticism lodged by the community through surveys, forums, and other things. The NFL, MLB, NHL, and college sports are always tweaking rules to better serve their product. Right now the NHL is trying to cut down on the amount of games that go to a shootout period because it, in the opinion of ownership and management, devalues the product. What is different here?

[magnets]

Originally Posted by Cory

Or you could revert them to their COTS state at the event if they become necessary.

This brings back memories of having a competition to see which kid could disassemble then reassemble the andymark super shifter the fastest. We got a team of three kids who could put both transmissions, assembled, wired and connected into our robot in about 10 minutes. It was a well rehearsed operation, but a total waste of time.

The lack of any mention about the pedestal issue, the scoring tablet lag that still exists, the dead ball wait times that are affecting teams in the finals, the hot goal delay, the fact that the hot goals sometimes don't switch, and the messed up FMS timing for starting/stopping teleop is really disappointing.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by magnets

The lack of any mention about the pedestal issue, the scoring tablet lag that still exists, the dead ball wait times that are affecting teams in the finals, the hot goal delay, the fact that the hot goals sometimes don't switch, and the messed up FMS timing for starting/stopping teleop is really disappointing.

None of these are affected by the rules and therefore will not be addressed in team updates, but may be addressed in Franks Blog later this week