Game Manual - Team Update - 2014-03-11

[Nick.kremer]

Originally Posted by magnets

The lack of any mention about the pedestal issue, the scoring tablet lag that still exists, the dead ball wait times that are affecting teams in the finals, the hot goal delay, the fact that the hot goals sometimes don't switch, and the messed up FMS timing for starting/stopping teleop is really disappointing.

The the only you mentioned here that should be included in a Team Update is maybe the dead ball wait times. Your other points, however still valid do not.

[Mark Sheridan]

Originally Posted by nixiebunny

I don't really care about whether or not the rule has a parallel in the real world. It's the rule; we'll follow it and all the other rules.

That's what it comes down to. Arguing about whether rules make sense is fruitless. They are the rules.

I hate doing my taxes but I am gonna do them and then I am gonna complain about them. I think that's how the tax process works.

[Nemo]

As was stated in the other thread, this goes straight back to the disagreement about build deadline vs no build deadline.

We have a stop build day, yet the rules explicitly allow us to continue building on parts of the robot. As long as this contradiction exists, the rules will always be at odds with themselves. You can't stop building and continue building at the same time. Any way that you try to resolve that impossibility is going to produce some nonsensical idiosyncrasies.

[Brandon_L]

Originally Posted by cgmv123

The FMS issues can be fixed with a software update, which aren't normally mentioned in Team Updates.

They still need to be publicly addressed, though. Correct me if I am wrong but I don't think there has been mention of it in blog updates either.

To the GDC:
If you have to force us into following the intent of the rule, its probably a poor rule to begin with.

Seriously, what happened this year? Can we have a 2014 FRC GDC Report?

[Nirvash]

Originally Posted by Brandon_L

They still need to be publicly addressed, though. Correct me if I am wrong but I don't think there has been mention of it in blog updates either.

Also the safety information on the Clippard tanks isn't a rule update, yet is in the Team Update. (Not saying that FIRST shouldn't do their best to get important safety information out)

[cadandcookies]

Well, another solid update. Focusing on safety, clarifying the withholding allowance, I think it's all around a good update.

I don't really like the R18 ruling, especially without the "functionally identical" caveat that existed previously. I guess I just have an unrealistic expectation for how difficult FIRST wants to make it for us to fix our collective robots.

Now, if we got the functionally identical rule back, making motors and motor controller assemblies legal, I'd be a bit happier.

Mostly, I think I'm just happy that things that need rule updates are getting them, even though I wish we didn't need them.

[Racer26]

I wish I understood why we lost the functionally identical spares caveat to R18.

Once upon a time, (and it wasn't that long ago) there was a distinction between identical spares (for example, a second, identical intake, intended to replace the one on the ROBOT in the bag if it gets demolished in competition), and UPGRADE PARTS. UPGRADE PARTS (something that is similar in function but not an identical spare) were required to be part of the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE, while identical spares were allowed in unlimited quantity.

If I wanted to have an identical, spare intake this year, and not have it be part of my withholding allowance, how do I do that? Put it in the bag with the robot? Its not really a part of my robot, until the identical part it is intended to replace fails. Never mind that sticking extra stuff in the bag makes the already-unwieldy thing even harder to move.

[zuzoom101]

G26 was a game changer in the Arkansas Regional. Team Scream (4522) lost one of their matches because they broke the low goal unintentionally. Despite the past being the past, Team Scream should probably have won the Arkansas Regional if this change was made earlier.

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by Racer26

If I wanted to have an identical, spare intake this year, and not have it be part of my withholding allowance, how do I do that? Put it in the bag with the robot? Its not really a part of my robot, until the identical part it is intended to replace fails. Never mind that sticking extra stuff in the bag makes the already-unwieldy thing even harder to move.

I believe the rule allowing two bags might help you in this case, and nothing ever said that everything in the bag(s) had to be used on the robot during the competition.

[Cheesycakester]

Originally Posted by zuzoom101

G26 was a game changer in the Arkansas Regional. Team Scream (4522) lost one of their matches because they broke the low goal unintentionally. Despite the past being the past, Team Scream should probably have won the Arkansas Regional if this change was made earlier.

I hate to resurrect the Arkansas Regional Thread, but to my understanding you're correct — this adjustment of G26 would have changed the outcome of Finals Match 2 and therefore the outcome of the regional. 4522's benign loading mechanism entered the low red goal three times while receiving a ball resulting in 60 points of fouls that shifted the 175-141 outcome to Red's favor.

I like to think this rule change came about due to this match, but I understand G26 has received heaps of criticisms from other regionals as well. Every team attending a Week 1 or 2 regional recognizes that there are still kinks in the game to be worked out at that point, and I'm extremely grateful to see this update implemented. We'll be coming out again in Week 6, and hopefully the refs and the FRC heads will have reconciled all these extraneous fouling scenarios by then.

[Chris is me]

This is an awful update. In an over zealous zeal to stop teams from getting parts out of a trailer outside the venue (the horror!), FIRST has now made it illegal to forget robot parts. That's right, if every part you need isn't there the minute you load in, you're screwed. No having your Friday team being in things. No having your Chairman's team bring props only on presentation day, as a non trivial number of chairmans props are now part of the withholding allowance! I sure do hope we didn't forget anything, and that no team at the regional needs a part we didn't already plan to bring. This is yet another joke in a season full of asinine rulings. The GDC is painfully out of touch and I'm just about sick of it.

[Answer42]

Originally Posted by magnets

This brings back memories of having a competition to see which kid could disassemble then reassemble the andymark super shifter the fastest. We got a team of three kids who could put both transmissions, assembled, wired and connected into our robot in about 10 minutes. It was a well rehearsed operation, but a total waste of time.

This. The rules are the rules. We will all follow them to our best understanding. But with the lack of the identical spares rule this year, the elite and mid-range teams are being dragged down. And the bottom teams are hardly affected.

In past years, smart teams would have replacement parts ready to go for every system on the bot. Motor burns out? Unplug the anderson connector and pop on a new one. Good thing you had that ready to go and didn't have to waste time on putting new connections on it in the brief time before your next match. Gearbox breaks? That's why you took the time to machine a spare one. Maybe you even cleverly designed it so that a whole assembly could be changed out quickly without compromising the functionality of the robot. Teams that thought ahead and prepared for regionals were rewarded.

But now you have to choose between doing tasks in the pit that you certainly would have done in your shop, or eating into your 45 pound weight allowance because you don't want to have to assemble a versaplanetary during a time out in elliminations. And if you want to preform a radical iteration on your robot? That 45 pounds can disappear really quickly between spare parts, "modified cots parts", and actual new systems.

I can understand first wanting to level the playing field. And this ruling and strict interpretation of the meaning of a COTS part certainly accomplish that. But I think it's going too far. I was always really impressed when I saw a team get a crucial mechanism broken in match and come back out with a new one installed in such a brief time. Reminds one of the efficiency of a NASCAR pit crew. I'd rather be inspired by things like that than watch good robots not work because they couldn't be fixed in time. But maybe that's just me.

[PayneTrain]

As a reminder to all teams, please be sure to bring in all team t-shirts not being worn but will be present at the event in to be weighed on the first day of the event, as they are fabricated items that do count against the withholding allowance.

lol. (credit to Brandon Liatys)

[MrForbes]

Originally Posted by Answer42

But with the lack of the identical spares rule this year, the elite and mid-range teams are being dragged down. And the bottom teams are hardly affected.

I'm glad we're a bottom team.

[cadandcookies]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

This is an awful update. In an over zealous zeal to stop teams from getting parts out of a trailer outside the venue (the horror!), FIRST has now made it illegal to forget robot parts. That's right, if every part you need isn't there the minute you load in, you're screwed. No having your Friday team being in things. No having your Chairman's team bring props only on presentation day, as a non trivial number of chairmans props are now part of the withholding allowance! I sure do hope we didn't forget anything, and that no team at the regional needs a part we didn't already plan to bring. This is yet another joke in a season full of asinine rulings. The GDC is painfully out of touch and I'm just about sick of it.

First off, I do agree with you to a point. I don't think this interpretation is a positive thing for this season or the competition as a whole. I'd like to see the return of functionally identical parts at the very least.

That being said:

I'm not one to say this much, but seriously, get a hold of yourself.

I say this as someone who disagrees with the current rules regarding spare parts, but there are significantly larger steps back they could have made, and this update helps solve the problems that made Arkansas so contentious, and clarifies a rule that was very much confusing. There are far worse things they can do than limit what we can bring in.

Outside of that, I really don't understand why not being able to bring parts in for Chairman's is a contentious thing-- there are a million things you can do in a Chairman's Presentation that have absolutely nothing to do with your robot parts. It's a very minor constraint compared to having five minutes for the presentation.

Lastly, I would have to disagree completely with this season being "full of asinine rulings"-- the vast majority of rule updates this season have made the game significantly more playable, reducing penalties and overall frustration of the game (the lexan on the goals). The GDC is quite clearly trying to improve this game and bring it closer to their vision of an exciting, cooperative game that meets their expectations (which I can almost guarantee are higher than any of ours). To accuse the GDC of being out of touch is to ignore all of the positive rule updates that have been released thus-far, and frankly I find that to be insulting and immature, whoever it's coming from.

Yes, the GDC is to "blame" for all of the issues with this year's game (and I am most definitely not saying that this year's game is flawless), but they are just as, if not more invested in making FIRST and Aerial Assist a success as we are. Remember that this game is a product of months or years of work on their part, and this isn't some small, local event they're putting on. Understandably we get invested in our robots-- does anyone really think the GDC feels any differently about their game?