Week 2 Analysis

[Siri]

I don't use the panels until Friday, but from the training, I really don't see why the pedestal can't light when I check High or Low Goal rather than when I hit End Cycle. I feel like this would help a lot in terms of delays.

We certainly need more than 5 people to handle entering G12s, G28s, G40s, G29, G26-1, all the other fouls, assists, and scores. But remember that veteran refs are calling possessions that they see differently. If it's inconsistent while dipping into (presumably) all available veteran referees with everyone trained and certified, is adding more 'umpires' (refs+scorers) making things better or worse? I honestly don't know, but the logistics are difficult enough to make me wonder. Remember untrained field reset in Week 1.

Without having actually VC'ed for FRC, I'd have to doubt whether a simple solution that involves every remaining event in the world finding and training 6+ more volunteers is actually a simple solution. That's not to say it's not a good or even the best solution, but maybe there's a way to split the tasks differently so it's not 6+. For instance, would it help to eliminate the foul screen for refs entirely, and just radio fouls to just one volunteer at one foul screen? I vaguely recall doing something like this at a previous year's event.


Separately,

Originally Posted by MrForbes

When the pedestal doesn't light, and the ball is entered into play, usually under direction of a referee, it appears the FMS still isn't aware that the ball should be in play (doh, the pedestal didn't light!) and the ball then gets no assists recorded, as the alliance cycles it.

This appears to be a situation that coaches are going to have to pay lots of attention to during matches.

Coaches are definitely watching this, but I have yet to manage myself or see anyone actually get something changed. Has anyone? In Week 1, we experienced 2 separate admitted field faults against us that we could not get replayed. I have no idea how else to do in this situation. What are other coaches doing? We lost 1 match by 4 and the other by 1. We were 6-6-0; the lowest 8-4-0 was 11th seed, 7th captain. I know how you feel, Travis.

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by mathking

Side note, thanks for posting the Q5 video Travis. In that match our code had high and low gear mixed up in autonomous, but we had no video of it. I want to use this as a reinforcement reminder about the dangers of not checking EVERYTHING about your autonomous code.

Don't thank me; thank our Ohio friends the Mavericks of 2252. I believe they are actively uploading full field Crossroads match videos to YouTube as we speak. Seems like it will take them a few days.

https://www.youtube.com/user/MavericksTeam2252

Originally Posted by tim-tim

During the match the refs are assigned an alliance to SCORE. They click on the robot #### in the blue box if that team POSSESSED the ball in the blue zone, etc. They then can click the TRUSS and/or CATCH buttons for the given alliance and indicate, by pressing HIGH GOAL or LOW GOAL buttons, when the ball is scored. Then an END CYCLE button appears. I assume this is when the pedestal is lit?

So the pedestal lights upon an end cycle confirmation, and it turns off following the initial possession entry for the next cycle. Can ANYONE give me any justification whatsoever for that blasted light to not be controlled locally by a "pedestal ref" holding a toggle switch hooked to a power supply, lol. Please don't tell me the light inside is donated and has to be controlled by Ethernet I/O or some such nonsense.

You can get rid of all delays related to the pedestal and the field by severing the lighting completely from the cycle process. Pedestal ref turns it on when the ball is through the goal (presume lights on the opposite scoring goal turn off once the end cycle is confirmed - PRETTY OBVIOUS SIGNAL TO TURN THE PEDESTAL ON). Turn it off once the HP inbounds and the first possession/assist light turns on. Note any early pickup infractions and communicate to nearest foul-calling ref. It's not like they'll be busy doing anything else for a bit once the HP picks the ball up....

You will have pedestal lighting times of sub 1-second if you simply have humans do it and make it the only thing they have to track during the match. [More gameplay. Less blar.] <-- Spotlight worthy, no? Make it happen, people. :-P

Young Gregor tells me some refs forget to hit the END CYCLE button. Why not make the screen or the button flash like a Japanese anime or something to prompt them to do it? I know those PanelViews have such object flash capabilities built in.

Thank you to actual referees for detailing this process - I think full exposure is helping drive further discussion.

[kborer22]

Originally Posted by Travis Hoffman

Don't thank me; thank our Ohio friends the Mavericks of 2252. I believe they are actively uploading full field Crossroads match videos to YouTube as we speak. Seems like it will take them a few days.

https://www.youtube.com/user/MavericksTeam2252



So the pedestal lights upon an end cycle confirmation, and it turns off following the initial possession entry for the next cycle. Can ANYONE give me any justification whatsoever for that blasted light to not be controlled locally by a "pedestal ref" holding a toggle switch hooked to a power supply, lol. Please don't tell me the light inside is donated and has to be controlled by Ethernet I/O or some such nonsense.

You can get rid of all delays related to the pedestal and the field by severing the lighting completely from the cycle process. Pedestal ref turns it on when the ball is through the goal (presume lights on the opposite scoring goal turn off once the end cycle is confirmed - PRETTY OBVIOUS SIGNAL TO TURN THE PEDESTAL ON). Turn it off once the HP inbounds and the first possession/assist light turns on. Note any early pickup infractions and communicate to nearest foul-calling ref. It's not like they'll be busy doing anything else for a bit once the HP picks the ball up....

You will have pedestal lighting times of sub 1-second if you simply have humans do it and make it the only thing they have to track during the match. [More gameplay. Less blar.] <-- Spotlight worthy, no? Make it happen, people. :-P

Young Gregor tells me some refs forget to hit the END CYCLE button. Why not make the screen or the button flash like a Japanese anime or something to prompt them to do it? I know those PanelViews have such object flash capabilities built in.

Thank you to actual referees for detailing this process - I think full exposure is helping drive further discussion.

I will say that the lights in general seem to have some lag (i've seen several instances/videos of light lag especially in auto). If you were relying on the lights over the goal going off, which are controlled by the same "end cycle" button, i'm not sure if that really solves the issue.

At the event i was at we ended up adding a manual redundant system to make sure the pedestals were working properly. The ref would put their flag up horizontal and wave it once they pushed the end cycle button. There was a dedicated field reset person there watching specifically for the Ref to make this signal. If the pedestal did not light they volunteer would give the team the go ahead to take the ball (I don't think we had any more pedestal issues once we started doing that).

From my experience when properly working, the pedestal lit up in 1-2 sec after hitting the end cycle button.

[Thelilpluck461]

Originally Posted by Travis Hoffman

Here's the video of Crossroads Q5, which clearly shows the "infraction" at match end - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFhSMpfk40k

Also, here's video that clearly shows a pedestal lighting delay near the end of Q24, a five point loss that a truss would have erased, had we been given the time we deserved to execute it. I believe you can hear the people recording the video (the good folks at 2252) commenting on the situation, but I can't be sure. The opposing alliance was given plenty of time to execute their winning truss shot, eh?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_dioSONuRo

Add two wins to our total, and we're 7-5 and looking at a potential top 12 seed, and that doesn't even include the other transgressions meriting a question box visit throughout qualifying.

GDC - FIX YOUR BROKEN STUFF. Your shortcomings DO have a SIGNIFICANT impact on team standings.

Mr. Hoffman,

I would have to disagree with both of your statements.

First the issue with the technical foul at the end of Q5 the video does not clearly show that the robot coasts out of bounds. I would say that the video confirms that the robot was out of bounds. The robot was out of bounds before the match ends and coasted further out of bounds. The match ends between 2:31 and 2:32. The robot that you point out is clearly out of bounds between these two times. The most reliable person in this situation to trust is the ref that was standing right in front of the robot in question.

Second issue being the pedestal lighting at the end of Q24. It appears that there is around a 2 second delay for the field to turn off the assist lights around the goal which should be around the same time the pedestal turns on. It takes around 7 seconds for a referee to finalize the score. Ideally it would take 9 seconds from when a ball is scored to when the pedestal light turns on. We all know that referees have much more to look at then just scoring. So a delay longer than 8 seconds is not out of the ordinary.

If you would like to nitpick the end of the match I see multiple infractions. Looking at end of the match it appears that the pedestal does not ever light up. I say the pedestal never lights up because the lights above the driver’s station do not turn off. For some reason the human player comes around and inbounds the ball. When the human player is inbounding the ball he steps out of the box there for a 10 point penalty. Assuming the human player took the ball off the pedestal when it was not lit that is a technical foul there for a 50 point penalty. The ball illegally taken off the pedestal is also in bounded which is a technical foul so another 50 point penalty. A grand total of 120 points in penalties. Even if there was a last second truss for 10 points the match would not have been close.

Even with the delay I do not see a need for a replay on qualification match 24. The delay was not long enough.

The fact of the matter is that the few complaints were from qualification instead of finals is fantastic.

There were some mistakes made at the regional but all in all it was a great event. Thanks to all the volunteers that helped out including field reset, referees, judges, and everyone else that assisted with the regional.

One more thing for everyone to think about is that F.I.R.S.T. cannot change too much for how regionals are scored and played. It would not be fair to teams that played the first few weeks.

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by Thelilpluck461

Mr. Hoffman,

[snip]

It takes around 7 seconds for a referee to finalize the score. Ideally it would take 9 seconds from when a ball is scored to when the pedestal light turns on. We all know that referees have much more to look at then just scoring. So a delay longer than 8 seconds is not out of the ordinary.

Thank you for confirming that an unacceptable delay caused by an overworked referee and a suboptimal field control system is a common occurrence. Makes me feel all warm and squishy inside.

If you would like to nitpick the end of the match I see multiple infractions. Looking at end of the match it appears that the pedestal does not ever light up. I say the pedestal never lights up because the lights above the driver’s station do not turn off. For some reason the human player comes around and inbounds the ball.

Oh, I don't know. Maybe the human player wanted to actually play the game instead of waiting around for previously-mentioned overworked referee and suboptimal field control system to take pity on him.

When the human player is inbounding the ball he steps out of the box there for a 10 point penalty. Assuming the human player took the ball off the pedestal when it was not lit that is a technical foul there for a 50 point penalty. The ball illegally taken off the pedestal is also in bounded which is a technical foul so another 50 point penalty. A grand total of 120 points in penalties. Even if there was a last second truss for 10 points the match would not have been close.

Dang, the refs sure were blind to all these transgressions. It's worse than I thought!

Even with the delay I do not see a need for a replay on qualification match 24. The delay was not long enough.

I'd love to be the person who gets to define what level of suck the system has to reach before a team is credited with a pity re-do. SUCH POWAHHHHHHHHH.

The fact of the matter is that the few complaints were from qualification instead of finals is fantastic.

Oh there are probably at least 3 teams that would beg to differ with you but I won't mention who they are. One posted in this thread earlier.

One more thing for everyone to think about is that F.I.R.S.T. cannot change too much for how regionals are scored and played. It would not be fair to teams that played the first few weeks.

Hear that, everyone who's yet to play - I'll be saving a nice and toasty seat for you in FRC hell!

FIX THE PROBLEM.

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by Thelilpluck461

It takes around 7 seconds for a referee to finalize the score. Ideally it would take 9 seconds from when a ball is scored to when the pedestal light turns on. We all know that referees have much more to look at then just scoring. So a delay longer than 8 seconds is not out of the ordinary.

Consider the situation with an above average alliance on the field. Let's say they manage to score 5 balls in a match. With your "ideal" delay, that means this alliance would spend 45 seconds of the match waiting for the pedestal to light up. That means 32% of the match would be spent with an alliance waiting to be allowed to enter a ball into play. This is simply unacceptable. Both the teams and the volunteer referees deserve better.

Thankfully, the pedestal delays I've witnessed in Ontario have been significantly shorter than "ideal" delays witnessed at Crossroads.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by kborer22

At the event i was at we ended up adding a manual redundant system to make sure the pedestals were working properly. The ref would put their flag up horizontal and wave it once they pushed the end cycle button. There was a dedicated field reset person there watching specifically for the Ref to make this signal.

At least your scoring refs HAD flags! At IE, we only had two flags, so they went to the foul-callers on the far side of the field. Our manual redundancy? The head ref and/or the FTA hauling tail to the end of the field to tell the team to pick up the ball.



BTW, I reffed Week 1. I've since put my name on the "available" list for a Week 4 event, seeing how overworked the refs were in Week 1. (I guess I'm a glutton for punishment.)

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by Karthik

Consider the situation with an above average alliance on the field. Let's say they manage to score 5 balls in a match. With your "ideal" delay, that means this alliance would spend 45 seconds of the match waiting for the pedestal to light up. That means 32% of the match would be spent with an alliance waiting to be allowed to enter a ball into play. This is simply unacceptable. Both the teams and the volunteer referees deserve better.

Thankfully, the pedestal delays I've witnessed in Ontario have been significantly shorter than "ideal" delays witnessed at Crossroads.

As someone who lives and competes in a region who hosts a single regional of 63+ teams and only allows for 8 matches a year, I like to employ the dollars per match when comparing our regional to other regionals/districts when discussing a desire to change competitive format. (Yes, in Virginia, a team could say they paid $625 per match... how lovely). Using this idea here where you spend 32% of matches waiting for the trashcan to glow, you are spending $1600 to stare at a translucent white trashcan and not go insane thinking about the action you are performing.

At Alamo in our 6th match, I remember running a few cycles where the lightup time was at least 5 seconds after the ball definitely cleared the goal. I wasn't actually counting but I did turn around and politely asked the trashcan "WHY IN GOD'S NAME AREN'T YOU LIGHTING UP" twice before it actually lit. That was 15 seconds of match time, or 1% of total match time granted. Still, that's paying $50 for one team to watch a trashcan illuminate itself in one match. The object itself had to cost no more than $50 to even make. It's stunning, to say the least.

[MrForbes]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

Using this idea here where you spend 32% of matches waiting for the trashcan to glow, you are spending $1600 to stare at a translucent white trashcan and not go insane thinking about the action you are performing.

Huh....I look at it as spending other people's money to be entertained for a long weekend. It makes it more fun. Our robot on the field is just a small part of it.

[mathking]

For me it comes to this. The GDC has created a game that is really close to being one of my favorite games ever. The game play itself has been exciting to watch and the way you play the game has at least as much influence on winning as the quality of your robot. So make the scoring and refereeing quicker and more consistent.

And again on the subject of "Changing something now would be unfair to the teams who played in week 1 or week 2" being a reason not to change, I don't see it. Everyone played under the same system in week 1 and week 2. If the system changes for the better, the teams who play later will all play under the same system. We played our only regional in week 2, and even on Saturday I was thinking "You know, if they just added people to track each robot for possessions and scores and had other referees to call fouls this would be a much better game." I certainly wouldn't want to say "Things could be better but since we won't benefit no one else should."

[Duncan Macdonald]

Originally Posted by IndySam

Why can't a trained storekeeper do that Nick? Rules of possession are not difficult to understand or enforce. Refs should just be watching for infractions.

If a regional had enough volunteers to create "referee's assistants" to do the data entry portion it would allow the refs to follow the action uninterrupted. Standing field-side the game is fairly easy to follow when you aren't looking down every 10 seconds. No additional training, no software changes required, slightly more people field-side.

[Siri]

Originally Posted by Karthik

Consider the situation with an above average alliance on the field. Let's say they manage to score 5 balls in a match. With your "ideal" delay, that means this alliance would spend 45 seconds of the match waiting for the pedestal to light up. That means 32% of the match would be spent with an alliance waiting to be allowed to enter a ball into play. This is simply unacceptable. Both the teams and the volunteer referees deserve better.

It's unacceptable across the board, and its burden discriminates by strategy. Adding 9 seconds to the end of each cycles means that I could be preforming the incredible feat of scoring 20-point cycles three times faster than an alliance scoring 50-point cycles, and still lose the match because I'm waiting a 'reasonable' amount of time for the light to come on. This is nutty. Field speed should not be dictating strategy anywhere near so heavily. 6.4% of match time per instance.

[Matt_Boehm_329]

Originally Posted by Siri

Adding 9 seconds to the end of each cycles means that I could be preforming the incredible feat of scoring 20-point cycles three times faster than an alliance scoring 50-point cycles, and still lose the match because I'm waiting a 'reasonable' amount of time for the light to come on.

Woah guys, what if that was the secret plan to get us more interested in multi assist cycles rather than quick individual cycles(tinfoil hat theories)

[Travis Hoffman]

Someone mentioned to me last night that there seem to be plenty of instances of teams having power cut to their bots 1-2 seconds before the buzzer sounds (or perhaps the buzzer sounds 1-2 seconds after the match ends...).

I've not seen much if any discussion on this (maybe I'm not looking in the right place). Does anyone have any firsthand experience with such a scenario happening to them? Is this actually a thing?

[Jared Russell]

Originally Posted by Travis Hoffman

Someone mentioned to me last night that there seem to be plenty of instances of teams having power cut to their bots 1-2 seconds before the buzzer sounds (or perhaps the buzzer sounds 1-2 seconds after the match ends...).

I've not seen much if any discussion on this (maybe I'm not looking in the right place). Does anyone have any firsthand experience with such a scenario happening to them? Is this actually a thing?

This happened in a bunch of matches at CVR. I believe it is related to the hot goal timing issue; the field clock display and the FMS clock are somehow getting out of sync. We have ample video evidence that robots are getting enabled before the field clock ever starts moving.

Hopefully both issues will be fixed via field software update.