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  #31   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-03-2014, 13:20
Steven Donow Steven Donow is offline
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Re: Mt. Olive 2014 Footage and Match Length Issue

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Originally Posted by Racer26 View Post
<snip>
again, full disclosure, the unmentioned Ref who was asked match time by the FTA and the one who Ryan initially told about the match time issue was me.

Mt. Olive had controversial events beyond this as is. Aside from the typical week 1 replays, there were other non-match related controversies that needn't be discussed here. It was stressful for all involved. The "I survived Mt. Olive 2014" joke was started before this issue was noticed.

When Ryan first told me about this around midnight last Sunday, I was flabbergasted with no idea of what to even say beyond a single expletive. I made the decision that it should, for the time, stay between as few people as possible until FIRST addressed it in some way or someone else noticed it and posted about it. The only person I told initially were the FTA, and a few days later, a fellow ref.

Simply put, I decided that it'd be best to wait until all of the other week 1 dust settled because to me, that was a more important thing to be discussed/settled than what occurred due to a minor oversight. It could have been avoided not just by FIRST.

I have no problem with FIRST's lack of immediately addressing this situation, which I'm sure is something many disagree with. I'm sure they're up to their necks in all the other issues (which, in the sense of the progression of the season are much more important). I'd rather the hot goal, pedestal, and overall FMS issued be fixed first.

I'm sure there are many who disagree with me, but I truly don't think this needs to be no.1 on FIRST's priority list until they determine what course of action to take on this.
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Unread 12-03-2014, 15:11
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Re: Mt. Olive 2014 Footage and Match Length Issue

Nobody's talking about the elephant in the room. This went on for a good part of Saturday and all of Sunday and yet not one person in, what, a few thousand, ever noticed it? It never rose to the level of attention for any of us? Did anyone see when the gorilla walked across the playing field? I think I'm going to go watch a few episodes of the TV series 'Brain Games'.

Last edited by Hoover : 12-03-2014 at 21:28.
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Unread 12-03-2014, 15:14
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Re: Mt. Olive 2014 Footage and Match Length Issue

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Originally Posted by Hoover View Post
Nobody's talking about the elephant in the room. This went on for a good part of Saturday and all of Sunday and yet not one person in, what, a few thousand, ever noticed it? It never rose to the level of attention for any of us? Did anyone see when the gorilla walked across the playing field? I think I'm going to go watch a few episodes of the TV series 'Mind Games'.
Well, why didn't you see it?

That's the same reason why everyone else didn't.
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  #34   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-03-2014, 15:21
Andrew Schreiber Andrew Schreiber is offline
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Re: Mt. Olive 2014 Footage and Match Length Issue

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Originally Posted by scottandme View Post
But most people would call it a bug, when the system defaults to the wrong match times, and requires manual override to make the event run properly.



So you're essentially suggesting that FIRST volunteers should find and patch bugs in the FMS system? The issue in this thread is the illogical method used to set match timing, but you don't have to look too hard to find multiple major issues with the FMS (hot goal timing & activation, poor UI/lag on the referee tablets, pedestal light activation delays). It's clear that the FMS (and game itself to an extent) was not developed or tested to the level of rigor necessary.

And doesn't freaking warn the operator that they are not running defaults. Seriously. Bad User Experience... to quote the UX guys here at work, "That's just poor design".

Scott, as a volunteer I will do my best to find and patch any bugs in the FMS I can. Wait, I can't. Because for some asinine reason it is proprietary and closed source. Oh, and in place of open communication protocols and COTS parts it uses closed protocols and expensive parts most people can't get. I guess that is just a microcosm of FIRST itself.
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Unread 12-03-2014, 15:35
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Re: Mt. Olive 2014 Footage and Match Length Issue

As previous people have pointed out, FIRST is a massive organization with extremely bright people, and a decent amount of money and sponsors. They are capable of holding an incredible number of competitions and organizing the massive championship event in St. Louis, and other fantastic accomplishments, but they can't seem to test the FMS, the magical closed source networking nightmare of complexity.

If FIRST had set up a field, and played 10 matches with boxes on wheels robots, they would have noticed a significant number, if not all, of these problems. If FIRST doesn't have the resources to do this (which would be surprising...), then they need to be transparent about it. Letting the FRC community know would only help. They still haven't acknowledged any of the FMS issues.
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Unread 12-03-2014, 15:52
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Re: Mt. Olive 2014 Footage and Match Length Issue

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Originally Posted by magnets View Post
If FIRST doesn't have the resources to do this (which would be surprising...), then they need to be transparent about it. Letting the FRC community know would only help. They still haven't acknowledged any of the FMS issues.
But that's what week 0 events are for, aren't they? <- much sarcasm
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Last edited by coalhot : 12-03-2014 at 16:43.
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Unread 12-03-2014, 15:56
Andrew Schreiber Andrew Schreiber is offline
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Re: Mt. Olive 2014 Footage and Match Length Issue

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Originally Posted by coalhot View Post
But that's what week 0 events are for, aren't they?
Maybe I'm blind but I don't see the /s

By that time the GDC cannot make large changes to the game without ticking off lots of people (see last year's rain of discs)

Simple playing of the game with Kitbots would have revealed many of these issues. And a dose of common sense (read as having EVER been part of an FRC team) would likely do a lot of good too.



Of course, not trying to shoehorn political crap into a game MIGHT also help. (rant about coopertition bridge here)
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Unread 12-03-2014, 16:27
Lil' Lavery Lil' Lavery is offline
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Re: Mt. Olive 2014 Footage and Match Length Issue

Perhaps taking a step back and looking at the bigger picture might help too...
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Unread 12-03-2014, 16:30
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Re: Mt. Olive 2014 Footage and Match Length Issue

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Originally Posted by Steven Donow View Post
I have no problem with FIRST's lack of immediately addressing this situation, which I'm sure is something many disagree with. I'm sure they're up to their necks in all the other issues (which, in the sense of the progression of the season are much more important). I'd rather the hot goal, pedestal, and overall FMS issued be fixed first.
As others have said and should be echoed.
There would be less to fix if more testing was done already by that time.

This isn't a dig just a question of accumulating risk.

I wonder if it's possible for MAR to get a field and spare parts a little earlier so there's more time to test ourselves so we can report obvious issues instead of falling over them.
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Unread 12-03-2014, 16:44
Andrew Schreiber Andrew Schreiber is offline
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Re: Mt. Olive 2014 Footage and Match Length Issue

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Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery View Post
Perhaps taking a step back and looking at the bigger picture might help too...
You mean the bigger picture of we pay $4000 to play an untested game designed by a group of people who, after being informed of this, sat on it for quite some time and have yet to publicly say anything about this issue.

Or are you going to say we should sit around, hold hands, and sing songs because this is all a bunch of volunteers?
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Unread 12-03-2014, 17:17
Lil' Lavery Lil' Lavery is offline
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Re: Mt. Olive 2014 Footage and Match Length Issue

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Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber View Post
You mean the bigger picture of we pay $4000 to play an untested game designed by a group of people who, after being informed of this, sat on it for quite some time and have yet to publicly say anything about this issue.

Or are you going to say we should sit around, hold hands, and sing songs because this is all a bunch of volunteers?
If your only form of discourse is to be confrontational and openly mock those who have other viewpoints, there's no use in having a conversation with you. I meant what I said. Perhaps you should take a step back and look at the bigger picture here.
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Unread 12-03-2014, 17:18
Brandon_L Brandon_L is offline
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Re: Mt. Olive 2014 Footage and Match Length Issue

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Originally Posted by Ian H. View Post
Yeah, I get that.
Then why tell us to not blame FIRST, when it is clearly an issue caused by FIRST? Sure, a ref/volunteer/someone could have noticed and corrected it, but at the heart of the issue who is at fault?

More importantly, why are we playing on an untested FMS in a game where "what happens if the only scoring object for an alliance becomes stuck in a disabled robot?" was an afterthought?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiifi View Post
Some would call it a feature, being able to change the match time.
To echo what Scott said, while changing the match time is indeed a feature, when the system boots up/restarts/what not, it shouldn't default to the incorrect settings. That is a bug.

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Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber View Post
By that time the GDC cannot make large changes to the game without ticking off lots of people (see last year's rain of discs)
And I thought bad calls/foresight couldn't get worse then that at that point in time.
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Unread 12-03-2014, 17:22
Andrew Schreiber Andrew Schreiber is offline
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Re: Mt. Olive 2014 Footage and Match Length Issue

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Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery View Post
If your only form of discourse is to be confrontational and openly mock those who have other viewpoints, there's no use in having a conversation with you. I meant what I said. Perhaps you should take a step back and look at the bigger picture here.
Ok, enlighten me - what bigger picture? Because in my opinion that IS the bigger picture. And the fact is, any time anyone is critical of FIRST here we are told to look at the bigger picture. The issue is that the bigger picture is obscured behind a series of blunders that make it very hard to appreciate it.
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Unread 12-03-2014, 17:27
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Re: Mt. Olive 2014 Footage and Match Length Issue

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Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber View Post
And the fact is, any time anyone is critical of FIRST here we are told to look at the bigger picture.
Its one thing when its people who haven't been around long are being critical, to dismiss them out of hand for 'not seeing the bigger picture'. When its 10+ year mentors, associated with well-known teams that are being critical?

Something is very, VERY wrong.
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Unread 12-03-2014, 18:12
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Re: Mt. Olive 2014 Footage and Match Length Issue

OK Folks: Everyone take a deep breath, and wait several hours before clicking "Submit Reply" button. Don't post something you'll want to un-post later.

Thank you.
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