I think FIRST needs to appoint more refs to each regional

[Leav]

Sorry if this has been discussed before, I looked a bit and couldn't find anything related.


There have many discussions regarding various issues with the game, to mention a few:

• Robots causing damage inside the frame perimeter of other robots - Refs either do not notice or do not penalize
• Refs missing truss shots
• Delayed ref reaction to pedastel not lighting up
• Refs occupied with the scoring computer, keeping them from watching the field
• Refs occupied with watching for pinning (which definitely requires undivided attention), missing other things in their area.

I'd like to stress that I have the utmost respect for the refs: i'm sure they are doing everything they can, but I do feel like the game is much too frantic for the 5 refs currently trying to get a handle on things.

I propose:
Each regional should have at least 2 more scoring refs, leaving the 4 other refs to handle defense, and the head ref to focus his attention wherever he feels it's needed.
In my mind the scoring ref would be assigned an alliance (red/blue) and would also be looking to make sure the pedestal lit up after a cycle ends.

I think this would help reduce the amount of non addressed issues during the intense matches.


I would love to here everyone's opinion on this, especially from refs/head refs.
Also, is this something the head ref can decide to do on his own or would he have to clear it with HQ first?

[Jon Stratis]

FYI - for week two the number of refs was increased. Instead of the head ref + 4 refs, there was the head ref + 5 refs + an alternate/sub.

Also, a small nitpick... FIRST doesn't appoint refs. They're all volunteers, organized by the head ref and the Volunteer Coordinator.

Part of the problem with increasing the number of refs is the limit on touch panels on the field. There are only 5 available - one for the head ref, and 4 for the other refs. As I understand it, the panels have two screens - one for scoring, and one for fouls. Part of the problem comes in with switching between the screens - you have to take your eyes off the field for a few seconds to get to the right screen and put in the right input.

At LSR, the refs handled it by having two of the positions act as dedicated scorers, and two of them act as dedicated foulers. They called scores and fouls over the radio to each other and recorded them. Frankly, the system seemed to work pretty well.

Another aspect to the problem - if you have a "scoring ref" for blue, he's probably going to be down by the blue goal, and thus unable to easily see the blue pedestal on the other side of the field.

[Richard Wallace]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

At LSR, the refs handled it by having two of the positions act as dedicated scorers, and two of them act as dedicated foulers. They called scores and fouls over the radio to each other and recorded them. Frankly, the system seemed to work pretty well.

Glad to hear that this worked well at Lone Star. I was thinking about the benefit of having dedicated tablets for scoring and fouls, once while Gary was demonstrating the system for me Thursday evening at Southfield, and again last night while I was taking the referee training & test. There is a lot for referees to follow this year.

[Leav]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

...for week two the number of refs was increased...

That's good to know, I didn't know that, 5 may still be one short, but i'm definitely not an expert!

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

Part of the problem with increasing the number of refs is the limit on touch panels on the field.
...
...
At LSR, the refs handled it by having two of the positions act as dedicated scorers, and two of them act as dedicated foulers...

That's a very neat idea, i'm sure that helps!

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

Another aspect to the problem - if you have a "scoring ref" for blue, he's probably going to be down by the blue goal, and thus unable to easily see the blue pedestal on the other side of the field.

I imagined him being positioned near the truss actually, but you are right: no position is ideal.
Maybe if he was focused on scoring/pedestal he could afford to look away from the field and maybe even take a couple of steps towards the relevant pedastel?
Also, as far as I could tell some of the problem was when refs hit a button on the touchscreen and for some reason it didn't register: because of the frantic pace the refs would usually try to get back to the game ASAP, assuming the press was registered. A dedicated scoring ref could solve this problem.
Maybe that's what the 5th added for week 2 is supposed to be doing?

-Leav

[Gregor]

The fifth referee didn't get another tablet, they were just another pair of eyes. They stood across from the head referee, at the truss.

[Caleb Sykes]

Originally Posted by Richard Wallace

Glad to hear that this worked well at Lone Star.

Here in Minnesota, LSR = Lake Superior Regional.

[GaryVoshol]

FIRST is responding, within the limits imposed by the hardware (tablets). They strongly recommended that volunteer coordinators get additional referees, so there could be the head ref plus 5 refs on the field, and a sub to give breaks to deter burn-out. This differs from the past where events were scolded for having "too many" refs.

[MrRiedemanJACC]

Gary,

That sounds like a great idea. It is a lot for the refs to volunteer their weekends, and there are only soo many to go around. With the extreme growth we've seen in Michigan, they are really going to be worked hard!

[Leav]

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

FIRST is responding, within the limits imposed by the hardware (tablets). They strongly recommended that volunteer coordinators get additional referees, so there could be the head ref plus 5 refs on the field, and a sub to give breaks to deter burn-out. This differs from the past where events were scolded for having "too many" refs.

Hi Gary,

Do you think more scoring tablets could be added if necessary?

even if FIRST can't add more tablets, It would still help to have more refs, wouldn't it?

-Leav

[GaryVoshol]

They might possibly be able to get more tablets in time for the CMP. (Heck, just appropriate some from fields that aren't being used anymore.) But they'd have to be programmed and tested.

[MrRiedemanJACC]

Ok, so this is a pet peeve of mine, please don't call them tablets. They are not tablets. They are Allen Bradley PanelView Plus 1000 Terminals. The technology is resistive technology, not capacitive technology. Everyone is used to capacitive touch screens (such as a iPad, Nook, most cell phones, etc). These screens are no where near the level of sensitivity as what everyone is used to with their normal devices. These are designed for an industrial application where you may be moving different machines and they don't want to be moved accidentally. Therefore resistive technology is appropriate for that because you need to be sure to move or start a machine. So when they are applied in a situation when a referee is overloaded, they are not going to take the time, nor do they have the time to verify that the push on the screen is actually made. Remember 80% of the time it's a process problem, not a people problem.


Here's the information on the Panel View
http://ab.rockwellautomation.com/Gra...lus-1000#/tab2

And how it's resistive technology.
http://www.ab.com/en/epub/catalogs/1...-Terminal.html

[RallyJeff]

Originally Posted by MrRiedemanJACC

Ok, so this is a pet peeve of mine, please don't call them tablets. They are not tablets. They are Allen Bradley PanelView Plus 1000 Terminals.

Even if it's technically incorrect, FIRST has referred to them as "ref tablets" in all their manuals and training materials since they were introduced, so I doubt you'll have much success getting people to call them something else now.

BTW: my pet peeve is when people use the word "podium" to describe a lectern. I'm probably not going to win that battle either.

[Richard Wallace]

Originally Posted by RallyJeff

BTW: my pet peeve is when people use the word "podium" to describe a lectern. I'm probably not going to win that battle either.

^+1

A podium supports your feet. A lectern supports reading material.

Sometimes a podium also supports a lectern. Sometimes a lectern supports a tablet.

---------

Back to the OP -- yes, more refs. Please.

[Jimmy Nichols]

Originally Posted by Richard Wallace

..Sometimes a lectern supports a tablet.

or an AB Panelview.

These are all donated to them from Rockwell so I'm sure they do not have extras laying around. I do know each HMI has its own program that it runs, so a sixth program would need to be created for a sixth HMI. I do not know the tag structure, so I'm not sure if each system has its own unique tags, if so then the program would need to be updated to add the new HMI in.

[IronicDeadBird]

After seeing a lil' carnage at the Utah regional I came to one conclusion. More people wouldn't help at all what you need is more experienced refs. That being said does anybody know if there is a way that teams willing to host scrimmages could be supplied with a FRC refs hoping to get practice in for next year?