FRC Blog - It Wasn’t Against the Rules

[cgmv123]

http://www3.usfirst.org/roboticsprog...inst-the-Rules

First, I’d like to clear something up. Last week I blogged about an alliance calling a timeout to give their opposing alliance a chance to make repairs.

I’ve received a few emails since then indicating some folks think this was a violation of T19, which prohibits the transfer of timeouts between alliances.

This was not a violation of T19. The red alliance did not hand their timeout coupon to the blue alliance for them to use. The red alliance used their own timeout themselves. As there are no requirements in the rules stating an alliance must use their timeout coupon only to make repairs for themselves, no rules were broken.

FMS Progress

While the FMS is performing better than it was in Week 1, we continue to work on improvements. Last Saturday, a software update was released that corrected an issue causing some ref screens to stop responding to input under certain circumstances. We are currently working on the occasional issues of auto goal timing being off and pedestal lighting delays. These issues have sometimes led to replays, which FIRST and event staff want to avoid as much as the teams do.

Mt Olive District Event Match Timing

This week I learned that most of the matches played at the Mt Olive District event in Week 1 were 20 seconds too short. Instead of being played with 10 seconds of Autonomous and 140 seconds of Teleop, they were played with 10 seconds of Autonomous and 120 seconds of Teleop. While the default times in FMS were set correctly, if FMS was shut down, then restarted, it was possible for the system to reload the match times from last year. The default times last year were 15 seconds of Autonomous and 120 seconds of Teleop. We believe the error in the Autonomous period was caught at the time and corrected at the event, but Teleop was not, leading to a split of new Auto/old Teleop times being used. This issue was not the fault of field personnel – they did a great job catching the Auto timing issue, and the Teleop timing issue was much less obvious because of the way the screens are configured. If anyone at the event noticed the matches were shorter than they should have been when the event was going on, it was not brought to the attention of field personnel, or at least we have no reports of that.

As background, match times are not ‘locked’ to allow for troubleshooting. There may be cases in which the FTA wishes to run short Auto or Teleop periods to test the system.

This bug in the system has been fixed, and we’ve thankfully had no other reports of this issue, but this does not correct the fact that this happened, and teams were impacted, for which I apologize. As we have no way to know exactly how the event results may have changed with longer matches, all results will stand. Again, I’m sorry for this issue.

Frank

Hopefully, everything can be fixed before actual matches start at most events tomorrow.

[maddoctor90]

Originally Posted by cgmv123

http://www3.usfirst.org/roboticsprog...inst-the-Rules



We are currently working on the occasional issues of auto goal timing being off and pedestal lighting delays. These issues have sometimes led to replays, which FIRST and event staff want to avoid as much as the teams do.

I would rather replay a match than have it scored wrong because a pedestal didn't light up. In fact, if a pedestal doesn't light up within a reasonable time (5-10 seconds) I think the match should be immediately stopped and replayed.

[Tem1514 Mentor]

Originally Posted by maddoctor90

I would rather replay a match than have it scored wrong because a pedestal didn't light up. In fact, if a pedestal doesn't light up within a reasonable time (5-10 seconds) I think the match should be immediately stopped and replayed.

I agree 100% so do we have another ref to watch for this? Hum, more ref's great idea, we need them.

Okay all kidding aside, the delay(s) in FMS is playing havoc with this years game and putting many at wits end. What will help is software changes in the FMS and of course more refs.

With all the problems I would sure like to replay week 1 at it almost seems like we are the testing ground for the game.

[Nemo]

Speaking of issues, does anybody have a feel for whether incorrect scores were less frequent in week 2 after they increased the referee numbers and shifted focus to scoring over calling fouls? I think the incorrect scoring was the biggest issue in week 1; getting credit for only two assists when an alliance actually made three assists is a pretty huge problem. It's also a huge issue when an alliance doesn't get credit for all of its autonomous scoring.

(Yes, I realize that three robots can possess the ball and still not achieve three unique robot-zone pairs, so some of the perceived scoring errors were not actually errors)

[Andrew Schreiber]

I distinctly recall there being comments on the FRC Blog. Wonder why those got turned off...

[Jon Stratis]

It looks like they were turned off starting with the post November 22, 2013:

http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprogr...Adds-Additives

All posts before that still have comments enabled, that one and all after it don't have comments. I don't recall ever reading why comments were turned off - maybe it was just too much work to moderate and reply to the comments?

[Hallry]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

I distinctly recall there being comments on the FRC Blog. Wonder why those got turned off...

Didn't they also say that 'Frank Answers Fridays' would return when build season started? Well...

[Ian Curtis]

The interesting thing is that in 2006 it became "in vogue" to call a cascading timeout to help your opponent finish fixing their robot. FIRST outlawed it the following year, presumably since it contributed to blowing event schedules.

2007 CD Discussion

Brando's got a great point too.

Originally Posted by Brandon Holley

Over this years, giving the other alliance your timeout has turned from a very gracious action, to a basically expected one. Honestly you do not really have a choice, because if you DIDNT give them your timeout you were being "un-GP".

[MikeE]

Originally Posted by Ian Curtis

The interesting thing is that in 2006 it became "in vogue" to call a cascading timeout to help your opponent finish fixing their robot. FIRST outlawed it the following year, presumably since it contributed to blowing event schedules.

2007 CD Discussion

Brando's got a great point too.

My sense is that it's become expected in final matches, not so much earlier in the eliminations.

[FrankJ]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

I distinctly recall there being comments on the FRC Blog. Wonder why those got turned off...

They are on for me. Maybe you are special?

[bduddy]

Over this years, giving the other alliance your timeout has turned from a very gracious action, to a basically expected one. Honestly you do not really have a choice, because if you DIDNT give them your timeout you were being "un-GP".

This is why I didn't like that Frank made the post the way he did - he's only contributing more towards it being an "expected" action to give up a very valuable resource, when your opponents may have brought the problem upon themselves. I'm not saying teams shouldn't do it, but...

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by FrankJ

They are on for me. Maybe you are special?

They were off when I looked. I even checked a half dozen other posts. They WERE off. Apparently they've since come back on.

[FrankJ]

So maybe the other Frank reads your posts and you really are special?

[Conor Ryan]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

They were off when I looked. I even checked a half dozen other posts. They WERE off. Apparently they've since come back on.

Looks like they are back, I loaded the blog post earlier where they did not appear and then I hit refresh and boom, comments!

I suspect they comments were turned off due to kickoff and because they wanted to push users to the Q&A.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by bduddy

This is why I didn't like that Frank made the post the way he did - he's only contributing more towards it being an "expected" action to give up a very valuable resource, when your opponents may have brought the problem upon themselves. I'm not saying teams shouldn't do it, but...

Well they did use their time out before the 3rd match of the finals and it was a serious hit from one of their robots that caused the damage that needed to be fixed. So the time out was going to go to "waste" if it wasn't used at that point and while you may not be able to say that the damage was solely their fault they certainly played a part in it.

As a mentor for one of the teams that benefited from their use of their timeout it certainly looked like it wouldn't really hurt them. In the second match we scored fewer points during the entire match than they did in auto and only won due to foul points. However for that 3rd match our alliance got our act together and started doing full 3 robot assist cycles and frankly played the best match that they had played together.