2014 Orlando Regional

[Kit Gerhart]

Originally Posted by Swampdude

First off I want to say how bad I feel for 233, 624 and 1902. They beat us straight up and 100% deserved to move on from our match. We were packing up after quarter 2 and someone from another team came to the pit and told us to stop because they were going to replay the matches due to the extra batteries. We weren't aware of the situation but naturally at that point we were excited to get another chance and not thinking really about the ramifications. In eliminations there's a lot of pressure to keep things moving fast. So we stopped packing and went to see what had happened. A number of people and alliance partners said the ref's needed an alliance captain to challenge this to get a rematch. I approved of this and sent our alliance captain student to present the question. As we stood there and waited on deliberation I realized this could have been a misunderstanding on 1902's part. I seriously doubt they willfully would try to sneak something past the inspection. I'm sure they were too rushed to get the arm off to even think about the inspection. Batteries are the first logical choice to replace the weight. Old rules said you can't do that but I'm hearing after that its not a clear current requirement. I think I heard their alliance checked for the rule as well and felt confident in their decision. I also think the inspection process is more about weight and in their case a major change on the robot could have meant an extensive re-inspection that probably didn't happen in the big rush to get on the field.
That said after we challenged I started to get a sinking feeling that this was going to go bad for that alliance and I don't think it should have. We were excited about having the chance for a rematch just out of a selfish wish to compete again, I really didn't think it would happen but as a team coach you have to leave no stones un-turned, you have to be thorough and consider the what ifs. But when we were told this decision was not negotiable and the 233 alliance would be eliminated my heart fell and I can't describe how bad I felt for pushing the issue. I regret the outcome and sincerely apologize to your teams. I didn't expect it would come to that and looking back would have pulled the plug on our challenge from the start. I saw some kids really hurt by this and didn't want to continue. But when its go time, you go, and we did. But know that we weren't happy about this and hope you guys understand these were truly unintended consequences.

Thanks for your informative post, Dan.

In my 19 years of involvement in FIRST, until yesterday, I don't remember an alliance, or team being retroactively DQ'd from matches, or DQ'd from elimination rounds as a result of what appears to have been a misunderstanding between a team and the inspectors. I am very sure that Bacon were acting in good faith with the changes, and were under 120 pounds with the non-connected batteries.

We have no problem with your team's submitting the challenge. We may well have done the same thing if in the same position, probably expecting nothing, or maybe a rematch for one of the matches.

Anyway, it was great seeing everyone at the event, and best of luck to 1592, 180, and 4901 at St. Louis. We will have another chance to qualify at Chesapeake, and hope to join you.

[JohnFogarty]

Firstly, I would like to thank the Orlando Regional Committee and Event Organizers for putting on again another great regional. In terms of organization and event flow I don't have much to complain about.

A lot of complaints about the competition come down to game design issues and penalty value flaws that aren't anyone at the Orlando Regional's fault really and I don't need to go into more depth about them in this thread.

Next and more importantly I would like to thank 1592 and 180 for being the best alliance partners I've ever had the pleasure of working with in my time with FIRST.

Most of you don't know that near the end of qualifications our shooting mechanism which was primarily used for autonomous and the occasional need to truss shot had finally begun to show high amounts of wear/tear due to some small designs flaws that have a greater effect over time. The shooter had basically been through 2 regional events at this point. Both mentors from 180 and 1592 worked with us to replace and machine a gear that was crucial to shooter's function all within about 30 minutes. With their help we never missed a single shot in autonomous in the elimination rounds.

I'm glad to finally be able to have seen a team that I'm working with get a blue banner in person.

I'd also like to congratulate team 4013. The things you've accomplished as a team to win the Chairman's Award in the time you have is astounding.

Lastly, I extend my condolences to the number one seed alliance. I know that our team was looking forward to possibly playing against you at some point in the elims.

[Billfred]

John's posted his bit, I'mma post mine too.

This is my eleventh season in FRC. Ignoring a season of hapless rookie status, I've known that the Florida (and later, the Orlando) Regional is the hardest regional in the South. For nine years, I've campaigned to varying levels of intensity with my past teams to get them to get them to come down and see how we'd stack up. This year with 4901, the planets aligned (read: John and I agreed it was a good idea, and we're the main and alternate contacts) and we finally got a chance to see what would happen if we took a robot down. Never did I think it'd work out THIS well!

First off, thank you 1592 and 180. I've seen 1592 from their rookie year and seen them develop into a force in the state that gives teams with numbers a thousand lower fits. My love of SPAM is well-documented--it was their 2004 robot that first really got me hooked on FIRST, and I was with 2815 when SPAM picked them and won Palmetto together in 2011. After the total disappointment of Palmetto, it was fantastic to play Aerial Assist with two top-notch partners.

Congrats to 179, 1251, and 79 on a hard-fought finals. We encountered all three of you (and in the same match, at that--with Tech Tigers against Swamp Thing and Krunch in Q79), and we knew firsthand just how hard-nosed the play was going to be. Add in that I've got friends associated with all three teams (and a slightly longer history with 1251 after Palmetto 2007), and it was a nail-biter all around.

Tip of the hat to 233, 624, and 1902 as well. I've dealt with all three teams over the years, and their reputation is sterling. I only have what I've read here and what I saw on the RoboShow for information, but I can only believe it was a snap decision (as almost all after-alliance-selection decisions are) that just didn't get fully vetted. I'm glad that 233 and 1902 have another event ahead of them to punch their tickets to St. Louis, and I have full confidence that they will.

Thank you to all the volunteers and workers at the regional. Aside from the fact that many old friends were working the event (and I appreciated catching up with all of you!), this event was run really, really well. Hopefully 4901 can make the return trip again next year!

...but first, someone got $5,000 lying around?

[MichaelH1902]

I feel compelled to clarify a few points regarding the disqualification of team 1902 Exploding Bacon and the alliance also consisting of teams 624 Cryptonite and 233 The Pink Team at the Orlando Regional. We are currently in talks with the Orlando regional, FIRST, and our alliance partners.

I will explain why we modified the robot for the finals and and a few details about what we did.

In the earlier matches we had struggled some with some intermittent technical issues with our shooter, but remained competitive due to the excellence of our drive team and the drive train. The Pink Team recognized this potential and wanted us in a defensive role, while they and Cryptonite put up the points. It was discussed that we would be more effective if we removed the arm to reduce our center of gravity. However, since that is a loss of over 40 pounds we would be too light for good traction and so ballast would need to be added.

At this point I suggested that we might be permitted to use unconnected batteries as ballast. Time was short and we would barely have time to make the changes, adding known weights would ensure that we would not be overweight when reweighed. Also, there few other choices since using bins of nuts and bolts seemed risky as they might spill their contents. Everyone agreed, that if permitted, it would be an ideal solution. Thus, before the final decision had been made to make the changes, I went to one of the inspectors, explained the situation and asked if we would be permitted to use batteries as ballast. It seemed prudent to get approval before embarking on such a course of action particularly since there is the well known rule prohibiting being powered by more than one battery. The inspector said that the batteries would have to be well secured and we must be weighed again and pass a re-inspection. All of that seemed reasonable and expected, so I reported back to the team.

The other teams arrived for consultation and we decided to go ahead with the changes. We removed the arm and attached a couple of aluminum extrusions for shot blocking and stiffening. Using heavy cable ties, the batteries were attached on top of the robot between the upright frames, but otherwise in plain sight complete with their unconnected cables visible.

With very little time remaining, four of our team members including two mentors took the robot to be inspected. The robot was weighed again (with the ballast batteries in place) and came in under the limit. Just to be clear, we did have the robot inspected after the modifications and with the ballast batteries in place. It went straight from the inspection to the field. I was later told by one of the other inspectors that we should have obtained a written re-inspection document of some kind. We did not receive one and it seems that we should have insisted we get one.

Exploding Bacon has a wonderful nine-year history and has won the Chairman's and Imagery awards. We all hold to the values and principles of FIRST with unswerving dedication. We are all ambassadors for these same values. On this point I know I can speak for the team: we would never willingly do anything to malign the reputation of this fine organization or our own good name. We would never risk the reputation of FIRST or our team in order to win. We acted openly and in good faith in every way.

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by MichaelH1902

I feel compelled to clarify a few points regarding the disqualification of team 1902 Exploding Bacon and the alliance also consisting of teams 624 Cryptonite and 233 The Pink Team at the Orlando Regional. We are currently in talks with the Orlando regional, FIRST, and our alliance partners.

-snip-

Michael,

Thank you for sharing your side of the story. I have known Bacon since its rookie year, and there is a reason that, to my knowledge, there isn't a single person out there that hates on Exploding Bacon: you guys do the right things and have fun. It was a quick-thinking decision that turned into a painful lesson for all, but I know you guys will bounce back just fine in South Florida. We'll be pulling for our 4-H-mates from up here in South Carolina.

[cruzr]

Glad that was finally clarified, sucks that it all came down to an issue like that. Interested in seeing what kind of tricks you guys have up your sleeve for South Florida, Bacon!

On a side note, any other teams from Orlando headed to South Florida?

[CASN8R]

Being only a second year Firster, 1 as a student with 4451 and now as a mentor, it is hard for me to blog up to par with the other two mentors, Billfred and John, along side me on 4901.

This 2014 build season was harder than my first because I instead had to be more hands off than I was used to being because of my duty as a mentor and I have to say it payed off.

I would like to of course thank every one running the Orlando regional for the fair regional that was provided whether any one thought it was or not and I am not just saying so because my team was lucky enough not to be overlooked because of experience and be picked by the Bionic Tigers (1592) and SPAM (180). Any confusion during the regional my team had with a match , the referees were always more than happy to clear anything up with our students and always make the fair decisions whether they benefited or hurt us. I want to let Alliance #1 (233, 624, 1902) know that our whole team's hearts go out to you all for what happened and I would like to send out a praise for the maturity that your alliance has displayed. Your alliance reeks of Gracious Professionalism and that has inspired our students!

Last, I would like to thank 4451 Robotz Garage for the help they gave us with our first build season whether it was with robot design, lending tools, or even for the banners they made for our pit! Mike Bryan was one of the most deserving mentors of being a Woodie Flowers Regional finalist. I would also like to thank The Pandamaniacs (1293), or as they are formally known as D-5 Robotics, for giving us the space and advice to train our drive team with obviously helped us win our team's first blue banner!

I LOVE FIRST!!!

...And also like Billfred asked, "Does anyone have $5,000 lying around"

[themccannman]

If the inspector openly agrees that he passed your robot through inspection I don't understand how the event officials could possibly feel justified in retroactively DQing your entire alliance on the grounds of their own mistake. I don't see a reasonable solution other than giving that alliance three of the wildcard slots for champs as compensation for the mistakes of the field officials.

[orangemoore]

Originally Posted by themccannman

If the inspector openly agrees that he passed your robot through inspection I don't understand how the event officials could possibly feel justified in retroactively DQing your entire alliance on the grounds of their own mistake. I don't see a reasonable solution other than giving that alliance three of the wildcard slots for champs as compensation for the mistakes of the field officials.

I have a feeling that FIRST HQ is working with the teams involved and determined what happened what they should and are going to do about it. I have a feeling that Frank will talk about it in the blog sometime this week. From what the teams have said on CD, there seems to be more to the situation than what has been said.(Not Sure If this is true, I would like to find out what happened and how it did.)

[MARS_James]

Originally Posted by cruzr

On a side note, any other teams from Orlando headed to South Florida?

There appears to be 21 of us right now:
21 ComBBat (Rank 16, Quarter Finalist)
86 Team Resistance (Rank 30)
179 Children of The Swamp (Rank 9, Finalist*)
180 SPAM (Rank 10, Winner)
386 Voltage (Rank 45)
744 Shark Attack (Rank 4, Semi-finalist)
1065 Moose(Rank 17, Quarter Finalist)
1251 TechTigers (Rank 26, Finalist*)
1369 Minotaur (Rank 48)
1523 M.A.R.S. (Rank 5, Quarter Finalist)
1649 EMS (Rank 33)
1902 Exploding Bacon (Rank 38, Quarter Finalist*)
2152 S*M*A*S*H (Rank 19, Quarter Finalist)
2383 Ninjaneers (Rank 58)
3164 Stealth Tigers (Rank 53)
3242 Illumicats (Rank 61)
3653 BotCats (Rank 50)
3932 Dirty Mechanics (Rank 28, Semi-finalist)
4118 Roaring Riptide (Rank 11, Semi-finalist)
4471 Spartrons (Rank 56)
4592 M3 (Rank 39)

[Ryan Dognaux]

Originally Posted by MichaelH1902

I was later told by one of the other inspectors that we should have obtained a written re-inspection document of some kind. We did not receive one and it seems that we should have insisted we get one.

This ranks pretty high on one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard from a volunteer. I'd be furious if I was on one of these alliance's teams.

This season is testing a lot of people's patience. I fear we're going to have some experienced people check out from FIRST because they're just tired of dealing with stuff like this.

[MichaelBick]

Originally Posted by themccannman

If the inspector openly agrees that he passed your robot through inspection I don't understand how the event officials could possibly feel justified in retroactively DQing your entire alliance on the grounds of their own mistake. I don't see a reasonable solution other than giving that alliance three of the wildcard slots for champs as compensation for the mistakes of the field officials.

973 got burned by this exact same situation last year at cvr

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by themccannman

If the inspector openly agrees that he passed your robot through inspection I don't understand how the event officials could possibly feel justified in retroactively DQing your entire alliance on the grounds of their own mistake. I don't see a reasonable solution other than giving that alliance three of the wildcard slots for champs as compensation for the mistakes of the field officials.

Same thing happened to us at CVR last year.

Lesson we learned was always make sure it's the LRI, and always make sure they put it in writing.

More or less, 95% of "inspections" after initial inspection in FRC are considered not inspections when held up to this scrutiny.

[Michael Corsetto]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

Same thing happened to us at CVR last year.

Lesson we learned was always make sure it's the LRI, and always make sure they put it in writing.

More or less, 95% of "inspections" after initial inspection in FRC are considered not inspections when held up to this scrutiny.

Yup, I remember that, and remember the same ugly gut feeling when I thought there would be a replay and found out they decided to DQ instead.

Ugly stuff. It would be nice if FIRST took a closer look at this aspect of the competition (completely legal, but often rushed, robot modifications post-alliance selection)

-Mike

[Nirvash]

That is just utterly ridiculous, the responsibility should fall onto the inspectors when there is a mistake cause by an inspector, not onto a team for not making sure their inspector was doing their job right.