Week 3 analysis

[troylu1124]

Originally Posted by tanmaker

Make sure you know what you're talking about before you make broad statements like that.

Sorry, my bad. At the NC and Palmetto regionals there were many instances where the pedestals would take up to 20 seconds to light up after a cycle ended. Also, if a ball was ejected from a robot out of the field, the volunteers seemed very confused with how to get the ball in play/who to give the ball to so they can get it into play, in some cases the ball was passed around the field only to be given to the human player who was next to the volunteer when the ball was collected.

[pabeekm]

Originally Posted by troylu1124

Sorry, my bad. At the NC and Palmetto regionals there were many instances where the pedestals would take up to 20 seconds to light up after a cycle ended. Also, if a ball was ejected from a robot out of the field, the volunteers seemed very confused with how to get the ball in play/who to give the ball to so they can get it into play, in some cases the ball was passed around the field only to be given to the human player who was next to the volunteer when the ball was collected.

It's also worth noting though that most of these errors were just during practice matches on the first day, and when such errors did determine the outcome of a qualification or elimination match, the refs did the right thing and decided that a replay was in order.

[ehfeinberg]

Originally Posted by pabeekm

It's also worth noting though that most of these errors were just during practice matches on the first day, and when such errors did determine the outcome of a qualification or elimination match, the refs did the right thing and decided that a replay was in order.

Not all the time at NC. 449 had to replay match 4 because the pedestal did not light up for a few seconds. However we were not allowed to replay other matches (such as match 30) when an auto ball was not returned to the field for close to a minute preventing normal cycles from starting.

Refs were very inconsistent with replaying matches when cycles took abnormally long to start.

[pabeekm]

Originally Posted by ehfeinberg

Not all the time at NC. 449 had to replay match 4 because the pedestal did not light up for a few seconds. However we were not allowed to replay other matches (such as match 30) when an auto ball was not returned to the field for close to a minute preventing normal cycles from starting.

Refs were very inconsistent with replaying matches when cycles took abnormally long to start.

Sorry to hear that. I was referring mainly to Palmetto. It's a real shame how hard this game is on the refs and volunteers with the long list of things to look out for and keep track of.

[Christopher149]

At Escanaba, the biggest thing is effective ball handling. When robots either have 1) only bumpers to touch the ball or 2) something poor system that ball can easily fall out of, it is very hard to earn possessions and assists. Not earning assists quickly kills matches, whether or not there are any shooters. 857's best matches, with the available bots, were 1) load in 857 2) 857 trusses 3) other team grabs ball 4) other team high goals ball. Or if 857 had to pick up, a slick pick up wins matches; it jamming kills matches

If you can't shoot in the high goal, stop trying and get in the 1-point.

For Esky, if alliance selection is any indication, there was a "wasteland" or "valley of death" from about seed 24 to 30 (of 36 teams) that weren't good at scoring or defense. Higher ranks could score; lower ranks could play defense. Ranking also isn't the greatest: #12 seed only got into elims as a back-up.

[Kyler Hagler]

We went to the Dallas Regional, here are some things I noticed.

• Defense is brutal. Your robot needs to be robust. Cantilevered intakes and other appendages will get beat up/broken.
• Also, referees/field crew really need to learn not to put balls back into play after you score two in autonomous. Resulted in a field fault because we did a two ball auto and they told our inbounder to put them back in resulting in 2 red balls in play.
• Field crew and referees need to not bump or reflect balls back into play. Again, a field fault.
• Pedestal delays, not during our matches but In other matches it happened. Field fault.

Overall this week went well I believe, less penalties but they are still to high in value.

[safiq10]

In Dallas I heard a lot of G28 but G40 is something I didn't hear. The only foul I disagree with is that another teams ball flew into the air and landed in our robot and we were pinned. We discarded the ball immediately but were given a foul that I found unfair.

[Dominick Ferone]

we had figured out quickly that defense isn't always about pushing force its about getting in the way we had one match where the autonomous ball didn't leave the field until a minute and a half in and another where they never got rid of the second auto ball.Mecanum really can play defense.

[mikemat]

The biggest things I learned week 3:
Get your auton balls in. If you can't clear them fast, keep them off the field.
Human players need to move fast. Nothing is more frustrating than waiting for a ball.
An inbounding robot is an immensely useful and easy position that not enough robots can fill well.

[Austin2046]

I only really remember 1 instance of the pedestal not lighting up at Mt. Vernon this past weekend. It was in Match 44, where the red alliance's pedestal wasn't lit for about 45 seconds after the previous ball was scored. That match was replayed after the rest of the qualifications were over.

The one thing I did notice though was 3 assists not always being awarded for a cycle. It particularly annoyed me when the third assist wasn't given to the robot in the third zone, when they scored the ball... and especially if those 20 points were the difference in the match. The Human player in bounds to robot 1, 1 assist. Robot 1 passes to robot 2, robot 2 goes into the white zone, 2 assists. Robot 2 throws over the truss, robot 3 collects it in the third zone and scores, but no third assist...

Also there were a number of instances of G12 at Mt. Vernon, at times it even seemed to be easier to have possession of an opponents ball than your own ball... bumping an opponents ball seemed to often give a G12 whereas bumping your own ball didn't give you an assist. Unintentional "Bulldozing," an act specifically mentioned in the manual as not qualifying as possession of an opponents ball, was once called for a G12... idk, seemed a bit excessive.

[evanatch]

Things I learned from Utah:

Calls made by referees can decide matches, and what is or isn't called a foul (or an assist) can be very inconsistent. G28 was enforced more strictly on Saturday than Friday, and in some cases it did decide matches. There were also inconsistencies on when rematches were played, which I know frustrated some teams. Overall, it's an extremely hard game to referee and I think the refs just have too much to keep track of to be able to maintain a high level of consistency in their calls. Ultimately, I think it's the lack of consistency that has made so many people frustrated with this game.

As others have said, defense, assists, and 1-point goals can trump high goals at times. Low goals are especially useful when the high goal is well-defended. Defense can, of course, be very rough. We had a bearing in our drivetrain shatter, a drivetrain chain snap, and our frame bent in one hit. We actually got called for a G28 on that one, as we were hit so hard that our arm dropped inside the other robot's frame perimeter. In the next match, we had a roller ripped off, as the welded aluminum tab that had held it on was snapped. It's a violent game, so building strong and easily replaceable mechanisms is critical.

Overall, inconsistencies in penalties and assists were the biggest frustration. The gameplay can be very hard for refs to keep track of, so inconsistent calls will probably be a persistent problem, I think. Hopefully in coming events it's effect on matches will be minimized. We were lucky enough to escape pedestal lighting issues for the most part, so kudos to the refs for being on top of that.

We enjoyed our experience in Utah greatly and are looking forward to Colorado and Championships!

[Mastonevich]

Originally Posted by evanatch

Things I learned from Utah:

Overall, it's an extremely hard game to referee and I think the refs just have too much to keep track of to be able to maintain a high level of consistency in their calls.

Agree with this. There is only so much each ref can do and it appears they are pushed beyond what is humanly possible.

[loyal]

Originally Posted by Mastonevich

Agree with this. There is only so much each ref can do and it appears they are pushed beyond what is humanly possible.

Absolutely. In Groton I saw a robot with its bumper off and still playing and at WPI a couple robots with bumpers dragging on the ground still playing. It seems like the refs are going after the big violations and letting the little ones skate. There is just to much for them to do and not enough of them to do it all. Some stuff has to fall through the cracks.

[SciBorg Dave]

From the EWU event in Washington

1- must make auto- teams must make 2 or 3 auto balls (40 -60 points) if missed get it off the field as soon as possible very important in elims
2- you have to get into assist mode fast
3- truss very important those 10 points per cycle add up fast
4- most matches 40-50 point cycles were done 1-3 times in elims average 2
this said if you go for the 1 point goal over the 10 point you lose 9 points per cycle 1-3 times that's 9-27 points per match that will win a match
5-a fast robust robot can fight thru a strong defense
6- robots must hold on to the ball when they get hit ( they will get hit ) chasing a ball lost many matches
7-if a bot can shoot a 10 point on the move they have a great advantage over a bot that has to stop to shoot from a certain spot
8- know the rules this was week 3 some teams did things like play the ball of the other alliance (possession) 50 point tech foul

While scoring the high goal effectively is good to have, being able to move and pass is more important. As a matter of fact the most important stat is assists. If you're in your eliminations, you pick an ally who assists score is bellow 200 you are cooked.

The stats don't lie:

Team Rank Assists Name
971 1 640 Moutain View HS
114 6 330 Los Altos HS
668 9 320 Pioneer HS, San Jose
100 26 160 Woodside
766 31 230 Menlo Atherton


----- Teams picked for finals, probably based on high goal ability or name recognition - I am guessing ------

1868 50 120 Space Cookies
115 51 110 Monta Vista, Cupertino
1351 52 100 Arch Bishop Mitty


In Sacramento - (the 1 rank 971 picked the 2 rank 1678, their third pick was 766 - who they modified to a pass through during lunch after alliance picks. They ended up winning, even though during one match 766 was dead on the field. 1868, 100, 115 and 1351 all made into the finals - and I am guessing they all had 10 point shots but not the consistency.

When 254 picked the lowest seeds at Inland I heard they were booed because people though they were being arrogant. That is BS. They picked teams who could pass the ball to them. So My advice is if you get to finals pick the remaining partners based on assists, not on rank.

BTW:


My team 751 rank 30 assists 310